Personal Defense Ammo

[03Lightningrocks]

After reading the facts about that ammo, it appears to me that the ammo is inferior in every possible way. Maybe the OP is trying to warn us not to buy that garbage.

[03Lightningrocks]

I just want to know why I have to buy the hog at a hispanic meat market. Are the hogs there different than the hogs at any other meat market?

Have you ever been inside of one of those it looks like an Eli Roth Boutique, you can't get a 1/2 a Pig at a Randalls or Tom Thumb or Krogers, the comparison doesn't really work shooting a hamburger patty or a bone-in ribeye....that was what I was trying to stress.

They sell hogs in non-hispanic meat markets too. Tom Thumb is not a meat market, it is a grocery store.

[healedknee]

Federal HST for the past two years. 230gr for .45 and 147 gr for 9mm. All standard velocity. I have used Gold Dot in the past.

[Keith B]

It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - Special Agent Urey W. Patrick, FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit, Qunatico, VA

I'll hang onto my Golden Sabers for now.

Let's look at .40S&W round the FBI uses, if you're trying to stop a threat of the soft tissue kind, RBCD has in a 77grain bullet 2100fps/754flbs that will make a 9" wide wound channel 11" deep......compared to Remington's Golden Saber which is 1307fps/626flbs, I can't find what golden saber's wound channel claims.......So I can have a lighter round that shoots faster, and has more energy at point of impact and penetrates 11 inches deep 9 inches wide, and that is NOT "an effective bullet for LE use?" how many bad guys are going to survive that type of round? And if you really wanted to stay protected even against "Fat Albert the Burglar" use the 10mm rbcd which has 242-fps/1015 flbs and leaves a 12x12 thereby satisfying Special Agent Patrick's minimal penetration requirements......But again as I've been told and instructed to others shoot what you're comfortable with. But when your foot is on the line I want Tier1 ammo and this is it.

Blended Metal Technology privately funded research from LeMas is a major marketing hoopla. An independent study by a very renowned industry professional Dr. Gary K. Roberts (read his bio on page 2 of the presentation in the link for his name) proves the bullets were garbage. He states "nothing but lightweight, repackaged varmint bullets disguised with a black coating of moly, and driven to higher than normal velocities with concomitantly higher than normal pressures." Also, a USSOCOM (US Special Ops Command) and ARDEC (Army Research and Development and Engineering Center) study published in 2007 supported what he is stating here http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19888" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, all the sales hype and reports by paid 'experts' are not worth anything IMO. Until you can provide us with evidence of what your real world experience is, I will go with the findings of a wound and ballistics expert who had no skin in the game on this ammo.

[rcasady]

daang , i leave town for one night and miss all kinds of shenanigans !

besides all that , i finally got a few boxes of buffalo bore 100 grain hardcast +p .380 to test out for myself ....after 60 rounds of flawless cycling great accuracy along with a nice noticeable BANG ! (lil bit of smoke too ? didn't seem dirty but definitely a puff of smoke) ive since loaded up all my mags and carry p238 with it . would have liked to shot more for assurance but it performed perfect in 60 rounds or $70 so im going with it

also, your gonna laugh at me but the holes it put in paper were without a doubt large holes ....im assuming its from the flat nose bullet . i wish i took some pics ,
but i was surpised to see a hole the same diameter as the .380 as opposed to a lil pinhole from the golden sabre pdx1's which by the way for some reason i had 3 incidents with my slide not locking back on empty while shooting pdx1's and some ball ammo , but never with the buffalo bore .... dont know why yet ...
maybe when i feel like blowing some cash i'll go buy a pig soon and see what they really do and share the results untill then im still gonna sport these buffalo bores

[03Lightningrocks]

...........maybe when i feel like blowing some cash i'll go buy a pig soon and see what they really do and share the results untill then im still gonna sport these buffalo bores

Make sure it is a Mexican pig. American pigs won't work!

[Ruark]

besides all that , i finally got a few boxes of buffalo bore 100 grain hardcast +p .380 to test out for myself ....after 60 rounds of flawless cycling great accuracy along with a nice noticeable BANG ! (lil bit of smoke too ? didn't seem dirty but definitely a puff of smoke) ive since loaded up all my mags and carry p238 with it . would have liked to shot more for assurance but it performed perfect in 60 rounds

SIG says the P238 can handle +P ammo OK, but warns that it may produce increased wear and more frequent repair. Probably true. I carry the flat point 100 gr. BB hardcasts in my P238, but practice with Speer Lawman.

[stroo]

Roberts did not "prove" RBCD bullets were garbage. He may have proved that Lemas lied in their marketing. Not the same thing.

Roberts also may have some credibility issues of his own if you do enough reading.

RBCD basically does what any frangible, Glaser, Magsafe, etc, does, i.e. it creates a relatively wide, relatively shallow wound. It does it in basically the same way; i.e. it is a lightweight, high velocity frangible bullet.

If you have to have something that meets the FBI standards that Andy posted, you don't want RBCD.

However, I don't entirely trust the FBI or any government agency to get things right. For example, if you read all the accounts of the Miami FBI shootout, particularly Massad Ayoob's accounts, a very early shot actually hit the heart of the BG who shot most of the agents. It was a mortal wound but didn't kill him right away. In other words, it penetrated just fine but still didn't stop the fight. The fight was stopped when a heroic agent fired mutiple shotgun blasts one handed at the BG. One of them hit the BG in his shooting handing rendering it inoperative. That stopped the fight even though it wasn't a fatal wound.

Other sources indicate that frangible bullets can and have stopped BGs.

And from my own testing of Glaser, Magsafe and RBCD, which I admit isn't scientific, I am convinced that RBCD will make the widest diameter hole with the same penetration.

Are they a silver bullet? Nope, there are no silver bullets. But I believe they have their place. I like that fact that they won't ricochet and that they will not have as much penetration through walls. So I use them for my first two rounds. I figure, maybe a bad assumption, that if I am in a fight lasting more than two rounds, I will probably need better penetration. So for the rest of my load I use Corbon DPX.

BTW, I may own RBCD bullets but otherwise have no commercial relationship with them. I just like them for certain purposes.

[DallasSVT]

Sorry this thread got so out of line....

I AM IN NO WAY AFFILIATED WITH RBCD!

Started this thread by simply asking what ammo everyone else was using and stated what I preferred..... I thought I would get more of a "go to" ammo that most of you guys used here on the board. Instead, Seems like there is not one brand that sticks out among us rather about 4 or 5 that different people seem to love and that the fact that I carry RBCD, I'm either a sales guy for the stuff or an idiot. I know I wouldn't want to take one to the chest!

All that I was looking for and I think the others on here could benefit from was.... "I use this ammo because of these reasons!"

I am honestly really surprised that one round did not "stand out" above the rest.

ANDYC-- Dont know you, but I don't think I'm putting the board members "lives at risk" by stating the ammo I use and showing some ballistics on it! I see that you, along with a few others use the GOLDEN SABERS but never stated why. My biggest complaint with these rounds is that they give off the worst "white Flash" when shot in low light than any other round, Rifle or Pistol! That has to be something to consider in low light situations and in the carry round one chooses.

D

[blackopstx]

(BTW I don't think used car salesmen hock time shares)

You don't say!! <sarcasm> in case its missed. But if they did I imagine it would sound similar. Minus all the ammo stuff though since we're being literal...

I like the stuff have used it in real world scenarios, in a variety of places and experiences

Please...Regale us with haughty tales of daring. If its been declassified of course. Certainly don't want any Opsec violations here...

Anyway ..you got your debate and when you lost you got really petulant and lashed out with personal attacks and name calling against a very respected member of the forum. Feel free to respond by PM since this is getting off topic and out of line with the usual jovial tone of this forum.

Hope everyone's Monday is going as well as one can,

When you say "lost" the debate olafpfj, what was the winning ammo in the debate, I haven't seen much if any comparable data to why any of the "non Gimmick" ammo is better or more reliable....have you personally hunted with RBCD or shot any soft tissue targets with it? If you haven't you really should give it a shot before forming an opinion off of people who don't like it on the internet, and probably haven't shot it either. I can only imagine in your best Hank Hill voice when you say ,"petulant and lashing out at a very respected member of the forum." So if you could enlighten me as to which ammo is the "winning" ammo, and why....some data like I've provided would be useful.

[snatchel]

(BTW I don't think used car salesmen hock time shares)

You don't say!! <sarcasm> in case its missed. But if they did I imagine it would sound similar. Minus all the ammo stuff though since we're being literal...

I like the stuff have used it in real world scenarios, in a variety of places and experiences

Please...Regale us with haughty tales of daring. If its been declassified of course. Certainly don't want any Opsec violations here...

Anyway ..you got your debate and when you lost you got really petulant and lashed out with personal attacks and name calling against a very respected member of the forum. Feel free to respond by PM since this is getting off topic and out of line with the usual jovial tone of this forum.

Hope everyone's Monday is going as well as one can,

When you say "lost" the debate olafpfj, what was the winning ammo in the debate, I haven't seen much if any comparable data to why any of the "non Gimmick" ammo is better or more reliable....have you personally hunted with RBCD or shot any soft tissue targets with it? If you haven't you really should give it a shot before forming an opinion off of people who don't like it on the internet, and probably haven't shot it either. I can only imagine in your best Hank Hill voice when you say ,"petulant and lashing out at a very respected member of the forum." So if you could enlighten me as to which ammo is the "winning" ammo, and why....some data like I've provided would be useful.

If anyone, including you... is using any type of "defensive" round, including RBCD, for the purposes of hunting..... then they are being an idiot. You can take that to the bank. Going out and shooting a brisquit or a rack of ribs with defensive ammunition is one thing, but hunting a live animal with this is not only inhumane in most cases, but ill-advised. Exceptions of course being small squirrels, and things of that nature....and even then I'll call 'em an idiot.

[blackopstx]

(BTW I don't think used car salesmen hock time shares)

You don't say!! <sarcasm> in case its missed. But if they did I imagine it would sound similar. Minus all the ammo stuff though since we're being literal...

I like the stuff have used it in real world scenarios, in a variety of places and experiences

Please...Regale us with haughty tales of daring. If its been declassified of course. Certainly don't want any Opsec violations here...

Anyway ..you got your debate and when you lost you got really petulant and lashed out with personal attacks and name calling against a very respected member of the forum. Feel free to respond by PM since this is getting off topic and out of line with the usual jovial tone of this forum.

Hope everyone's Monday is going as well as one can,

When you say "lost" the debate olafpfj, what was the winning ammo in the debate, I haven't seen much if any comparable data to why any of the "non Gimmick" ammo is better or more reliable....have you personally hunted with RBCD or shot any soft tissue targets with it? If you haven't you really should give it a shot before forming an opinion off of people who don't like it on the internet, and probably haven't shot it either. I can only imagine in your best Hank Hill voice when you say ,"petulant and lashing out at a very respected member of the forum." So if you could enlighten me as to which ammo is the "winning" ammo, and why....some data like I've provided would be useful.

If anyone, including you... is using any type of "defensive" round, including RBCD, for the purposes of hunting..... then they are being an idiot. You can take that to the bank. Going out and shooting a brisquit or a rack of ribs with defensive ammunition is one thing, but hunting a live animal with this is not only inhumane in most cases, but ill-advised. Exceptions of course being small squirrels, and things of that nature....and even then I'll call 'em an idiot.

Why is that dumb? RBCD makes a perfect round for taking down big game, if your just going to mount it why not a quick devastating round? If your a hunter you want knockdown power to go with a good shot, assuming you are one...or am I alone on this too? .."hunting a live animal with this is not only inhumane in most cases, but ill-advised. Exceptions of course being small squirrels" is a small squirrel not a live animal? You don't necessarily want to eat big game like a bear, mule deer, or even feral hogs or javelina. I'm not talking about using an animal for testing a self defense round, but you can hunt and do so effectively with rbcd, I like the predator .223

[snatchel]

There is a difference in "hunting rounds" and "defensive rounds." The ammo you were talking about earlier were definately defensive rounds. Hollowpoint, etc. This Predator .223 business your talking about now, I have no idea about... have never even looked at it.

Defensive rounds are designed to attain 12 inches or so of penetration, while the bullet rapidly expands. This is not the case with hunting rounds. Your typical hunting round is built around penetration, and if it expands some... great, but you dont wan't it expanding like a hollowpoint. 1) expansion damages mean. 2) expansion stops penetration.

I hunt deer and pigs regularly.... pig more often. Javelina and Feral. Lets say I took a defensive cartridge in .223 to go hunting these pigs with. These round are meant for humans, not animals. Pigs can be especially tough to take down.. . a regular defensive round placed around the front shoulder of a pig would penetrate about 5 inches.. maybe.. and come to a complete stop. The pig would get away.. maybe live a couple days.. and die of infection or something eventually. Hunting rounds are meant to penetrate, not expand.

But whatever. Your mileage may vary. I'm happy to let this thread die...

[snatchel]

By the way, I went ahead and looked at their website. The testimonials were entertaining.

32 ACP ... a coyote shot with 32 ACP literally flips a cotote around in the air.

... Ok. I dont think I need to comment on this.

.40 cal.... man shot with .40 cal, sending the man flying 6 feet through the air....

... show me with physics how this is even possible, and I will poop you a golden apple.

US Military using this ammunition to kill BG's

I did not know that the Military was legally allowed to use anything but FMJ. Interesting.