ATTN Wheelgun fans: J-Frame dilemma

[Dusty Harry]

For those who still live in caves, ride horses to get around, and sometimes prefer firearms that function in a circular fashion, help me decide. I currently have a S&W 640 that has a custom ported 2 1/8" barrel, dovetail front sight and slicked up action that Bill Weigand dod for me years ago, that is a very nice little gun. NO vertical recoil with +P loads, even wearing slick wooden Speigel boot grips.

But, I have to admit that I have always felt a bit undergunned with it for daily carry, even with +P loads, given the 5-shot capacity (...and Lord Only Knows how much velocity is venting out of those four ports!).

Sooo... I've been looking at J-frame options that can handle .357 loads. Yes, I know that isn't a pleasant thought in a +/- 24 oz. gun, but I would feel better about 5 rounds of that vs. 38 +P, and I'm not particularly recoil-shy. What really got me thinking hard about this was after I shot some Hornady Critical Defense 125 gr. FTX (#90500) the other day, and it was pretty easy to shoot for being a .357 load - seemed like it would be perfect in a snubbie...maybe a +P++ .38 VERY Special compromise.

After much research, I've kinda got the hots for a 640 Pro Series, which has good tritium sights fore and aft, full length extractor on a 2 1/8" bbl, and is relief cut for full moons as an added bonus. But, I am also very fond of 3" barrels (I've got a 3" 686 round butt that is amazing but too honkin big for easy carry). I have handled a 3" 60-15 that seemed very well balanced and also had adj. rear sights.

Given the pro's and con's between the two, which would you go with, and why? OR, is this just much ado about nothing, and should I just be OK with +P's in my current 640?

(and no, I'm not interested in a SP101, and even IF you could find a short barrel K frame in .357, well,might as well just carry the 686...).

And, I just don't know enough to consider the .327 versions of these models - you get 6 vs. 5 rounds in the same package, but I'm concerned it's gonna be a fad and it seems the jury is still out on street cred.

Thanks in Advance!

[74novaman]

I'm a fan of the 5 shot .357s, but I don't own a 640 so can't comment on that.

The thing I will add is I understand feeling undergunned, and you still will feel that way, even with a .357 over a .38. Simple fact is 5 shots isn't a lot.

Thats why when I choose to carry my .357, I ALWAYS carry a good solid knife with it.

Usually a SOG Visionary 2, or a CRKT M21. Both are very heavy duty folders with at least 3.75" blades.

Just my .02 on J frame carry.

[stroguy]

I feel very comfortable with my 5 shot 442 and 38+P, but I also have an LCP usually in my cargo pocket or front pocket. 5 shots of course is better than no shots.

[HankB]

My "always" gun is an S&W 340Sc which I "pocket carry" loaded with Winchester 145 grain .357 Silvertips.

I replaced the factory grips with Crimson Trace Lasergrips that cover the backstrap with rubber, so now it's merely unpleasant to shoot rather than painful.

I like the light weight for pocket carry, and the 2" barrel works well for that; a longer barrel would mean a holster, and if I'm going IWB anyway, I'll have something larger than a J-frame. As far as I'm concerned, J-frames are a niche product - they fill that niche (pocket carry) very well, but it's still just a niche.

[Dusty Harry]

I hear you about the knife 74NovaMan...I have three different Benchmade tantos - my current fav is a 3.5" Mel Pardue design. Love those axis locks. Feel absolutely nekkid without a blade on me. And to Stroman - I have a Kahr P380, but I think I'd rather just have a few speedloaders instead. Thanks for your thoughts. DH

[The Annoyed Man]

For those who still live in caves, ride horses to get around, and sometimes prefer firearms that function in a circular fashion, help me decide. I currently have a S&W 640 that has a custom ported 2 1/8" barrel, dovetail front sight and slicked up action that Bill Weigand dod for me years ago, that is a very nice little gun. NO vertical recoil with +P loads, even wearing slick wooden Speigel boot grips.

But, I have to admit that I have always felt a bit undergunned with it for daily carry, even with +P loads, given the 5-shot capacity (...and Lord Only Knows how much velocity is venting out of those four ports!).

Sooo... I've been looking at J-frame options that can handle .357 loads. Yes, I know that isn't a pleasant thought in a +/- 24 oz. gun, but I would feel better about 5 rounds of that vs. 38 +P, and I'm not particularly recoil-shy. What really got me thinking hard about this was after I shot some Hornady Critical Defense 125 gr. FTX (#90500) the other day, and it was pretty easy to shoot for being a .357 load - seemed like it would be perfect in a snubbie...maybe a +P++ .38 VERY Special compromise.

After much research, I've kinda got the hots for a 640 Pro Series, which has good tritium sights fore and aft, full length extractor on a 2 1/8" bbl, and is relief cut for full moons as an added bonus. But, I am also very fond of 3" barrels (I've got a 3" 686 round butt that is amazing but too honkin big for easy carry). I have handled a 3" 60-15 that seemed very well balanced and also had adj. rear sights.

Given the pro's and con's between the two, which would you go with, and why? OR, is this just much ado about nothing, and should I just be OK with +P's in my current 640?

(and no, I'm not interested in a SP101, and even IF you could find a short barrel K frame in .357, well,might as well just carry the 686...).

And, I just don't know enough to consider the .327 versions of these models - you get 6 vs. 5 rounds in the same package, but I'm concerned it's gonna be a fad and it seems the jury is still out on street cred.

Thanks in Advance!

I have an M&P340, which is basically your pistol with a scandium frame and black stainless cylinder, and a BIG dot night sight on the front which lines up quite perfectly with the rear notch. It is actually the most intuitive sight system of any pistol I own. It weighs 13 oz unloaded (about half what a 640 weighs). It is chambered in .357 magnum and I carry it with Hornady Critical Defense 125 grain .357 ammo. I have fired this ammo in that gun. It causes my hand to sting, just a bit, but all things considered, it is surprisingly easy to shoot.

I also own a 640, just like yours in every respect except the porting and dovetailed front sight, and I never carry it. It's too heavy for pocket carry, and not enough gun (for capacity reasons) for belt carry. But the 340 pockets like a dream and I carry it with some degree of regularity.

[snatchel]

For those who still live in caves, ride horses to get around, and sometimes prefer firearms that function in a circular fashion, help me decide. I currently have a S&W 640 that has a custom ported 2 1/8" barrel, dovetail front sight and slicked up action that Bill Weigand dod for me years ago, that is a very nice little gun. NO vertical recoil with +P loads, even wearing slick wooden Speigel boot grips.

But, I have to admit that I have always felt a bit undergunned with it for daily carry, even with +P loads, given the 5-shot capacity (...and Lord Only Knows how much velocity is venting out of those four ports!).

Sooo... I've been looking at J-frame options that can handle .357 loads. Yes, I know that isn't a pleasant thought in a +/- 24 oz. gun, but I would feel better about 5 rounds of that vs. 38 +P, and I'm not particularly recoil-shy. What really got me thinking hard about this was after I shot some Hornady Critical Defense 125 gr. FTX (#90500) the other day, and it was pretty easy to shoot for being a .357 load - seemed like it would be perfect in a snubbie...maybe a +P++ .38 VERY Special compromise.

After much research, I've kinda got the hots for a 640 Pro Series, which has good tritium sights fore and aft, full length extractor on a 2 1/8" bbl, and is relief cut for full moons as an added bonus. But, I am also very fond of 3" barrels (I've got a 3" 686 round butt that is amazing but too honkin big for easy carry). I have handled a 3" 60-15 that seemed very well balanced and also had adj. rear sights.

Given the pro's and con's between the two, which would you go with, and why? OR, is this just much ado about nothing, and should I just be OK with +P's in my current 640?

(and no, I'm not interested in a SP101, and even IF you could find a short barrel K frame in .357, well,might as well just carry the 686...).

And, I just don't know enough to consider the .327 versions of these models - you get 6 vs. 5 rounds in the same package, but I'm concerned it's gonna be a fad and it seems the jury is still out on street cred.

Thanks in Advance!

I have an M&P340, which is basically your pistol with a scandium frame and black stainless cylinder, and a BIG dot night sight on the front which lines up quite perfectly with the rear notch. It is actually the most intuitive sight system of any pistol I own. It weighs 13 oz unloaded (about half what a 640 weighs). It is chambered in .357 magnum and I carry it with Hornady Critical Defense 125 grain .357 ammo. I have fired this ammo in that gun. It causes my hand to sting, just a bit, but all things considered, it is surprisingly easy to shoot.

I also own a 640, just like yours in every respect except the porting and dovetailed front sight, and I never carry it. It's too heavy for pocket carry, and not enough gun (for capacity reasons) for belt carry. But the 340 pockets like a dream and I carry it with some degree of regularity.

I am a HUGE fan of Hornady Critical Defense for carry ammo. I especially like the .357 125 gr stuff-- it just shoots well.. no bones about it.

[ELB]

I am of the school that more holes is better than slightly bigger but fewer holes, so I long ago switched to hi-cap 9mm. (I do have a snub for backup duties and rides inbetween the front car seats alot).

But if you are going to go with a snub, I would stick with .38s and be happy. I don't think there is a significant real world difference between a .38 and a .357 from a two inch or less barrel, but in my hand at least the .38 is noticeably more controllable, and especially in a lighter frame. If you can adequately control a .357 snub, more power to you (and in that case I'd look at a .44, if you want a bigger bullet), but anything you can do control-wise with a .357 you can do better with a .38.

The one thing that would drive me to change out the snub you have is the ported barrel. I am sure it helps with control, but for self-defense shooting see it as a liability. You don't always get to extend and arm much, if at all, and in fact the snub is precisely for up-close-and personal shots. The problem with a ported barrel in these cases is it can direct case and bullet shavings into your own face. I have seen this happen. Also, if fired from a pocket (another snub specialty) you again have gas and maybe fragments going in a non-productive direction.

What I would suggest is get two non-ported snubs with shrouded or concealed hammers and put one in each pocket.

Oh, and the knife is very good too. Just make sure you train vigorously in accessing it (as well as your snubs), and if it is a folder, getting it unfolded. ("Vigorously" includes having people in your face pounding on you or kneeling on your chest as you lay on the ground.)

[The Annoyed Man]

I don't think there is a significant real world difference between a .38 and a .357 from a two inch or less barrel, but in my hand at least the .38 is noticeably more controllable, and especially in a lighter frame...

On the other counts, I would largely agree with you. But on this one, you're wrong. I phoned Hornady and asked them what ballistics results they had gotten out of the 125 grain Critical Defense .357 load in a 2" snubbie. The reason I asked is because, at the time, their website only had data for a longer barrel (8", 1500 fps, 624 ft-lb). Long story short, Hornady got 1200 fps and 400 ft-lb out of the 125 grain .357 Critical Defense load in a 2" snubbie. Today, they have added that information to their website (SOURCE). There isn't a +P .38 special load made that can come close to those figures in a 2" barrel.

[rdcrags]

Also, if fired from a pocket (another snub specialty) you again have gas and maybe fragments going in a non-productive direction.

Or, a productive area that becomes nonproductive.

[texasmusic]

What TAM said. The J frame is a wonderful addition to your carry options. The devil called MP340 is just a lighter and more potent version of a gun which was designed to be light and potent. Joy to shoot... no. Unbearable... no.

The front sight really has spoiled me. I'm already looking for places to outfit the rest of my arsenal with tritium front sights.

[JCole]

I would suggest you try the Buffalo Bore Heavy .38 Special +P 158 gr. LSWCHP GC It does an honest 1050 fps or so out of a 2" barrel, which puts it into medium .357 range, and it lets you keep using the gun you already have and like. I carry it in my model 60-7 in a pocket regularly, and don't feel burdened, or underpowered.