Carry always...even at the hospital

[olafpfj]

http://news.yahoo.com/police-man-kills- ... 28455.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Murder in the intensive care unit.

The antis always want guns banned from "emotionally charged" places. Those are precisely the places I feel most threatened.

*edited to remove misread summary

[Keith B]

The problem is many hospitals in Texas are posted with 30.06 signs

[Jumping Frog]

Murder suicide in the intensive care unit.

It wasn't murder suicide. The guy killed his wife & mother-in-law, then surrendered to police.

[OldCannon]

http://news.yahoo.com/police-man-kills- ... 28455.html

Murder suicide in the intensive care unit.

The antis always want guns banned from "emotionally charged" places. Those are precisely the places I feel most threatened.

Possibly, but consider two things:
1) Most hospitals, especially emergency rooms, are posted 30.06. If you're caught concealed carrying, expect to pay the price.
2) My wife is an RN at a large hospital in North Austin. We talked about this before and she brought up some interesting points. An ER is usually crowded with staff, patients, and families pretty much 24x7. If you were in a defensive situation, you're in an very awful predicament anyway, because
a) Armed police are likely just 100ft or so away. You can be certain they still stop ANYBODY with a gun and sort things out later. They are there precisely to handle these kind of situations. I assure you that at my wife's hospital, one word from a nurse or doctor and an unruly patient or visitor will get some hot taser lovin. They even have special intercom codes for different situations (every hospital has these procedures in place)
b) With thin walls, oxygen lines/tanks everywhere, and medical equipment that can possibly have radiation issues, a shot that misses the bad guy has a high chance of hitting another person or dangerous item
c) Unlike a threat situation in the open, the closed environment gives little room for families to take cover, and the patients themselves are often non-ambulatory - not even a fighting chance to find cover if multiple shots are fired.

I am not Rambo. I am not Batman. I understand that I have obligations on when to carry and when NOT to carry. A hospital, in my opinion (and my wife's) is not the place (and she has a CHL too).

[olafpfj]

http://news.yahoo.com/police-man-kills- ... 28455.html

Murder suicide in the intensive care unit.

The antis always want guns banned from "emotionally charged" places. Those are precisely the places I feel most threatened.

Possibly, but consider two things:
1) Most hospitals, especially emergency rooms, are posted 30.06. If you're caught concealed carrying, expect to pay the price.
2) My wife is an RN at a large hospital in North Austin. We talked about this before and she brought up some interesting points. An ER is usually crowded with staff, patients, and families pretty much 24x7. If you were in a defensive situation, you're in an very awful predicament anyway, because
a) Armed police are likely just 100ft or so away. You can be certain they still stop ANYBODY with a gun and sort things out later. They are there precisely to handle these kind of situations. I assure you that at my wife's hospital, one word from a nurse or doctor and an unruly patient or visitor will get some hot taser lovin. They even have special intercom codes for different situations (every hospital has these procedures in place)
b) With thin walls, oxygen lines/tanks everywhere, and medical equipment that can possibly have radiation issues, a shot that misses the bad guy has a high chance of hitting another person or dangerous item
c) Unlike a threat situation in the open, the closed environment gives little room for families to take cover, and the patients themselves are often non-ambulatory - not even a fighting chance to find cover if multiple shots are fired.

I am not Rambo. I am not Batman. I understand that I have obligations on when to carry and when NOT to carry. A hospital, in my opinion (and my wife's) is not the place (and she has a CHL too).

1) I was not in any way suggesting that I or anyone should, or would, violate a valid "no guns" posting.
2) Every enviornment provides unique ROE's and I am always thinking about what my reactions would be and what ramifications my actions would have.
3) After my experience at Cook Childrens yesterday I have also come to the conclusion that a hospital is no place for a gun fight and I felt uncomfortable (mentally) all day having it on me. However, just because I have it on me does not mean I am obliged to draw it and engage and its far more scure on me than in my car. I am more likely to flee or bunker in place if something gets wonky and I am a big fan of letting the pros deal with things.

[Jumping Frog]

I understand that I have obligations on when to carry and when NOT to carry. A hospital, in my opinion (and my wife's) is not the place (and she has a CHL too).

Well, I disagree on principle that making virtually anywhere a gun free zone is good policy.

Off the top of my head, only the White House, jails/prisons, and secure mental health hospitals come to mind as reasonable exceptions, and they all have reasonable security procedures in place. Even with those three exceptions, it would simply make sense to have lockable storage at the gate for a visitor to secure their firearm while on premises and available for retrieval upon exit.

As far as hospitals go, it isn't necessarily being in the hospital itself where I would expect risk. It is having a criminal encounter in the parking lot.

How many nurses getting off shift at "0-dark thirty" do you think have been assaulted, raped, kidnapped, or robbed in hospital parking lots all over the country in the last 10 years? It is a non-trivial and preventable risk.

[chasfm11]

There are two things that really irk me about 30.06 hospital situations.

1. The excuses given by the organizations are the same baseless charges that the anti's use for other locations. Is it possible that I might try to defend myself inside of the ER against some drug crazed lunatic and put a bullet through an oxgen line? Sure, its possible. So is a space ship landing in my back yard. Now, the real question is "has it ever happened"? Is there a single example anywhere, anytime, of a person licensed to carry a handgun shooting into an ER with disastrous consequences? In my book, laws and rules are supposed to solve problems. What problem are we solving here?

Now, let's step aside and ask how many times people have needed to defend themselves in and around hospital ERs? Depending on the location, I'd submit the answer is quite a few.

2. It is my opinion that much of medical administration is cut from the same "holier than thou" cloth that permeates the Federal government. We peons just don't understand. I just got through fighting with Baylor Hospital in Grapevine. They asked me to sign a blanket acceptance that said I would pay of my insurance didn't - and then used a procedure that the collective insurance companies had deemed experimental. When I questioned the situation, they told me that they didn't believe that they were under any obligation to identify experimental treatments prior to administering them. I nearly went ballistic. I remained outwardly calm but I ground on them verbally and in writing. This is NOT Elite medicine making their own decisions about mine and my family's health. They are required by law to have me sign releases for surgery, indicating that I understand the potential risks and most of those are considered standard procedures. There is no way that I shouldn't be completely advised of the treatments that I'm receiving unless is a life or death emergency - and the procedure in question was definitely not in that category. I was through a similar situation with a surgery that was also deemed experiment and it never said anything on the releases about that designation. I view the 30.06 postings as coming from the same mentality.

Yes, I completely understand that it is a "private" hospital and they have the right to do what they will within the law. I'm not questioning that. I am taking umbrage at the reasoning behind it. It is my right to do that.

[OldCannon]

How many nurses getting off shift at "0-dark thirty" do you think have been assaulted, raped, kidnapped, or robbed in hospital parking lots all over the country in the last 10 years? It is a non-trivial and preventable risk.

Pretty much none, so it's definitely trivial. Hospitals can afford security escorts and they DO offer escorts if a patient or employee asks.

I'm not saying a parking lot is safe, but the services a hospital offers to employees and patients are different from, say, Wal-mart.

[speedsix]

...anytime...anywhere... http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Br ... 80318.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 46004.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/ma ... spital-er/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/Nu ... tjysg.cspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.chicagojournal.com/News/11-3 ... ex-husband" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[OldCannon]

...anytime...anywhere... http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Br ... 80318.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 46004.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/ma ... spital-er/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/Nu ... tjysg.cspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not arguing that point, and I'm CERTAINLY not arguing against CC. Bad things can happen _anywhere_. I, personally, don't like having to lock my gun up in the car at ANY time because it's technically less secure than on me. My point is that there are more reasons to not CC (and discharge a firearm) in a hospital than in any other place. I don't expect that would sway some strong opinions on here, I'm just stating what my position is: I support a hospital's 30.06, and don't begrudge it (versus, say, Fiesta Texas, where I would never go _because_ of their 30.06)

[speedsix]

...I think we're in the same book, just not on the same page, here, but I don't believe that we should delegate our personal safety anywhere that the law allows it to be in our hands...I care more for my own skin than does the guy manning the metal detector at the hospital, or the bored security guard, or the overtired, sleepy cop working double duty...the dangers of an ER (ie O2) are all the more reason to be able to put an end to shooting by the wrong people...who don't care at all about others' safety...it's just an extension of the belief that as long as there are bad guys with guns...there should be good guys with guns...witness the schools...and the churches...and any other non-gun massacres you can think of...

[Divided Attention]

In some of the larger medical centers in Houston area the "employee lots" that are part of the benefits are a bus ride a way, often poorly lit, and HUGE! The garages within walking distance are terrifying places in the daytime, and while I always asked for a security escort, sometimes they made my spidey senses tingle and you had to wait up to 1/2 hour for them to come meet you. This is not fun when you have had a 12 hour shift and spent another 2 hours giving report and finalizing all your documentation that was impossible due to the crazy assignment load. Glad I am not there anymore, and pray frequently for friends that are.

[chasfm11]

How many nurses getting off shift at "0-dark thirty" do you think have been assaulted, raped, kidnapped, or robbed in hospital parking lots all over the country in the last 10 years? It is a non-trivial and preventable risk.

Pretty much none, so it's definitely trivial. Hospitals can afford security escorts and they DO offer escorts if a patient or employee asks.

I'm not saying a parking lot is safe, but the services a hospital offers to employees and patients are different from, say, Wal-mart.

Interesting. I heard exactly the same arguments in person from the panel and the President of UT Arlington at meeting on concealed carry last year. They claimed that there was no crime problem on campus (there is but news about it is suppressed), escorts are available to students who want them (they generally aren't) and the risks of a licensed person in the campus environment far outweigh any good that they might do. Like many other college and university campuses, UTA is surrounded by some questionable areas but when the session leader spoke, he all but said that there is invisible barrier which prevented any problems in those surrounding areas from bleeding over onto the campus.

Both Parkland and John Peter Smith hospitals are great examples of places where I believe that the security risks are actually greater than a typical Wal-Mart parking lot. I suspect that the police blotters from Dallas and Ft. Worth would bear out my beliefs. Suburban hospitals like Baylor Grapevine and Harris Methodist - Hurst, both of which are 30.06 posted, are not places that would prefer to be after dark. Unfortunately, there are few alternatives in an emergency situation.

[OldCannon]

Interesting. I heard exactly the same arguments in person from the panel and the President of UT Arlington at meeting on concealed carry last year. They claimed that there was no crime problem on campus (there is but news about it is suppressed), escorts are available to students who want them (they generally aren't) and the risks of a licensed person in the campus environment far outweigh any good that they might do. Like many other college and university campuses, UTA is surrounded by some questionable areas but when the session leader spoke, he all but said that there is invisible barrier which prevented any problems in those surrounding areas from bleeding over onto the campus.

Both Parkland and John Peter Smith hospitals are great examples of places where I believe that the security risks are actually greater than a typical Wal-Mart parking lot. I suspect that the police blotters from Dallas and Ft. Worth would bear out my beliefs. Suburban hospitals like Baylor Grapevine and Harris Methodist - Hurst, both of which are 30.06 posted, are not places that would prefer to be after dark. Unfortunately, there are few alternatives in an emergency situation.

Yup, and I think I need to revise my opinion. After thinking this through a bit, what I realized is that my wife and I are discussing this in context of what her experiences are/were. The reality, as some of you have pointed out, is that not all hospitals are reasonably safe areas, or at least aren't always located in a low-crime area. And no place is ever considered a safe place anyway. If someplace wants to disarm me with a 30.06, I'm left with the feeling of an empty promise. I still haven't come to terms with agreeing that CC should be allowed into the hospital, I guess because I can see so much more going wrong than right, but it's morally wrong that I should claim that people should be disarmed on their way from the hospital (or anywhere else) to their car.

[Dave2]

How many nurses getting off shift at "0-dark thirty" do you think have been assaulted, raped, kidnapped, or robbed in hospital parking lots all over the country in the last 10 years? It is a non-trivial and preventable risk.

Pretty much none, so it's definitely trivial.

I'd like to see your source on that. I'm not doubting you, but... well, ok, I am doubting you, but only because I would've guessed that there wouldn't be that much of a statistical difference. I don't think you're lying or anything, just maybe wrong.