Invalid 51% sign??

[woofe]

I have noticed that several chain restaurants in the Dallas area have 51% signs at the door. There is no way that sign is accurate as they are family places and are full of children all the time. A 51% establishment cannot allow folks under 18 on the premises.

I am embroiled in an argument with a friend of mine. He insists that since the establishment is not a true 51% business that I can ignore sign and enter without worry. I'm going to stay OUT or not carry when/if I eat there.

Any RKIs here have any experience with this issue?? Would it be reasonable to expect the TABC to take any action to correct this sign issue?

Thanx

Frank

[apostate]

A 51% establishment cannot allow folks under 18 on the premises.

Are you sure about that?

Then it should be no trouble to cite the relevant statute.

[jimlongley]

You can go to TABC's web site and see what license they have, and TABC has been known to see to it that proper signage is enforced.

[G.A. Heath]

It has to be 51% as determined by the TABC in order to be off limits. You can have multiple businesses in one premises where the one selling the adult beverages is 51% but another business is not 51% like a bowling alley. The entire premises can be off limits due to 51% but the primary business may not sell anything at all to drink, not even water. The real issue is that IF the posting is not valid then you, as a license holder, can walk past it without worry as long as its not an off limits location or posted properly under TPC 30.06. You might still get arrested if discovered but you probably won't be convicted.

Edit to add: And yes, contacting the TABC will get it corrected if posted in correctly.

[apostate]

It has to be 51% as determined by the TABC in order to be off limits. You can have multiple businesses in one premises where the one selling the adult beverages is 51% but another business is not 51% like a bowling alley. The entire premises can be off limits due to 51% but the primary business may not sell anything at all to drink, not even water.

That is key. I personally know a licensed premise that TABC determined is 51% but I don't believe the determination - and neither does the owner, FWIW.

[srothstein]

I want to emphasize that the law banning carrying does not say if posted. It also does not say if it IS a 51% location. It says if it is as determined by TABC. Recently, in large part due to members of this forum, TABC changed their public records to tell us what they determined the location to be. When you go to their website, you can search for any licensed location and get the determination. If the record says "sign = red" it is 51% as determined by TABC and a line saying "sign = blue" means it is not.

And just as a side note, they make the determination based on how the questions are answered on the application/renewal. If the license allows for on premise consumption, they look at how much the expected sales will be. The form asks for sales from alcohol, sales from food, and other sales. If the alcohol sales is greater than the food and other, it is 51%. If the owner does not want to be 51%, he just needs to adjust this answer appropriately when he renews.

[KFP]

Any chance that you're seeing the TABC blue sign?

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=34571" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RPB]

Lookup the business on the TABC website following the guide here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=45112&hilit=tabc+lookup" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can tell if it is a 51% location (sign=red) or not 51% (sign=blue). http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/enforcement ... cation.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If a red 51% sign is up and it should be a blue sign ... http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/enforcement ... cation.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and the TABC will provide the correct sign and instructions for the business to correct the problem.

[steveincowtown]

I want to emphasize that the law banning carrying does not say if posted. It also does not say if it IS a 51% location. It says if it is as determined by TABC.

I was amazed by this as well, but the law actually does say the 51% sign has to be posted.

"PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally,
knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority
of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of
whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's
person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued
under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if
the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or
service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined
by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section
104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

Beverage Commission.
(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the
actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government
Code."



Which is....


"a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).


(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public."


So, just like many of the other "defenses to prosecution", if the sign is not displayed it is not a "posted" location.

IMHO, IANAL, etc, etc.

[wgoforth]

I have noticed that several chain restaurants in the Dallas area have 51% signs at the door. There is no way that sign is accurate as they are family places and are full of children all the time. A 51% establishment cannot allow folks under 18 on the premises.

I am embroiled in an argument with a friend of mine. He insists that since the establishment is not a true 51% business that I can ignore sign and enter without worry. I'm going to stay OUT or not carry when/if I eat there.

Any RKIs here have any experience with this issue?? Would it be reasonable to expect the TABC to take any action to correct this sign issue?

Thanx

Frank

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe minors may be in such establishments, but cannot be served or consume alcohol.
This from the TABC Site:

4.May a minor enter the premises where a license or permit is issued?
Generally yes, if he does not possess or consume an alcoholic beverage. A minor may not enter the premises of a package store unless accompanied by an adult parent, spouse or guardian. A licensee or permittee may have a “house rule” that minors may not enter their licensed premises

[bayouhazard]

A package store can't be 51% because it's not legal to consume on premise.

[wgoforth]

A package store can't be 51% because it's not legal to consume on premise.

Can't tell if your trying to respond to me or not, but not what I was asking if so. The OP has said the establishment cannot be a 51% because children go there and are not, asccording to him, permitted on 51% property. I am asking if that is correct or not, and TABC seems to indicate that is not correct.

[3dfxMM]

So, just like many of the other "defenses to prosecution", if the sign is not displayed it is not a "posted" location.

In the case of a 51% establishment it is illegal to carry there whether they post a sign or not. You have a defense to prosecution, but it is never legal to carry there.

[steveincowtown]

So, just like many of the other "defenses to prosecution", if the sign is not displayed it is not a "posted" location.

In the case of a 51% establishment it is illegal to carry there whether they post a sign or not. You have a defense to prosecution, but it is never legal to carry there.

Not sure what you are after here....

It is my understanding of the law that is not legal to carry with a CHL...it is just a "defense to prosecution." Isn't this how all the CHL laws were written?

[3dfxMM]

I was pointing out that the law doesn't actually say the sign has to be posted for it to be illegal to carry in a 51% establishment. A defense to prosecution was recently added for the case where the sign is not posted, but the presence of the sign has no bearing on whether or not it is illegal for a CHL to carry there.