What should I have done = 51% sign

[Keith B]

If the business is legitimately 51%, then 99.9% of the time the whole location (address/building they occupy) where they serve alcohol would be off limits.

Example: Chuy's bar makes the drinks and they are served out in the restaurant under the same license, so if they truly were 51%, then the whole place is off limits. In the case of Chuy's, they have an incorrect sign posted if they are showing 51%.

The only exception to this would be if the bar was owned separately from the rest of the location, and they were truly 51%. However, I don't believe you would be able to take the drinks out of the designated area at that point.

I can tell you, unless it looks and smells like a BAR only, then I will bet you they had the wrong sign posted.

[Llanero]

It sounded like one of those "wrong color sign" scenarios. I guess you could look at it a couple of different ways (if the sign had been correct). One was that you could have gone directly out to your car and left your gun there...probably what I would have done. The second is that you had already broken the law, so why not just wait for your food, which is what you did. If it had been a true red 51%, then I guess you can't break it just a little bit, it is broken. Your way of handling it seems as good as any except for it raises the odds you will be caught out. I am not dinging you one way or the other...you made a decision and it worked out. Then you had the good sense to check it out with TABC.

RJ

I made a mistake, I should have gone to the car immediately as soon as I saw the sign. I won't make that mistake again.

Just to make things clear to those who are interested, here is what their sign looked like: (This is not the actual sign, I didn't get a picture because I didn't want to draw any attention to myself.)



Posted inside with no signs at the main entrance.

This is what the TABC website says:

License #: MB569290

Trade Name: BUFFALO WILD WINGS
Owner: ODESSA WINGS LTD.
Location Address:
4241 N GRANDVIEW AVENUE
ODESSA , TX 79762
Mailing Address:
4241 N GRANDVIEW AVE
ODESSA , TX 79762
County: Ector Orig. Issue Date: 12/21/2004
Status: Current Exp. Date: 12/20/2011
Wine Percent:
Location Phone No.: 8067973966 Gun Sign: BLUE

[RPB]

Yep, if they post the red sign and TABC says they should have posted the blue sign instead, you should inform TABC so they can teach/instruct/ correct the situation

[speedsix]

Like other places I have seen, they just put up all the signs the TABC sends them in their packet.

I have found this to be the case too often. I have been in several places that were clearly NOT 51% places and could easily find a 51% sign. I have been in places that were clearly 51% places and could never find a sign or even find their liquor license to see if it was red or blue. I would use ones best judgment as to what to do if a 51% sign was found after ordering food. Just finish and leave would seem to be the best. Remember that it used to be illegal to carry in a 51% place whether they posted or not. Now it is a "defense to prosecution" if you don't see a sign.

...I gotta search this one out...that would be good news...it sure DID used to be that you were in trouble whether or not they posted the 51% signs at each entrance,or not at all...if it's a "defense to prosecution", I wanna find where...I've been in a lotta 51% places and found the signs only as I walked out...or not at all...I don't say anything for the same reason I don't talk to them about 30.06 signs...

...it's not listed under PC46.035 covering Unlawful Carrying of Handgun by License Holder...where we're told about our responsibilities regarding 51%...can someone help me out finding that "defense to prosecution" change???

FOUND IT...HB2664 took effect Sept 2009 and not included in LS-16 of Oct 2009 nor the online Nov 2009 revised copy here: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetfo ... CHL-16.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ............ text of the new bill here: http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/81 ... navpanes=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; it amends 46.035 and should be in the next edition...

[flb_78]

I made a mistake, I should have gone to the car immediately as soon as I saw the sign. I won't make that mistake again.

Posted inside with no signs at the main entrance.

This is what the TABC website says:

License #: MB569290

Trade Name: BUFFALO WILD WINGS
Owner: ODESSA WINGS LTD.
Location Address:
4241 N GRANDVIEW AVENUE
ODESSA , TX 79762
Mailing Address:
4241 N GRANDVIEW AVE
ODESSA , TX 79762
County: Ector Orig. Issue Date: 12/21/2004
Status: Current Exp. Date: 12/20/2011
Wine Percent:
Location Phone No.: 8067973966 Gun Sign: BLUE

Actually, NO, you were correct in staying.

Gun Sign: BLUE

They have the wrong sign posted. You broke no law while you were there.

[Keith B]

It sounded like one of those "wrong color sign" scenarios. I guess you could look at it a couple of different ways (if the sign had been correct). One was that you could have gone directly out to your car and left your gun there...probably what I would have done. The second is that you had already broken the law, so why not just wait for your food, which is what you did. If it had been a true red 51%, then I guess you can't break it just a little bit, it is broken. Your way of handling it seems as good as any except for it raises the odds you will be caught out. I am not dinging you one way or the other...you made a decision and it worked out. Then you had the good sense to check it out with TABC.

RJ

I made a mistake, I should have gone to the car immediately as soon as I saw the sign. I won't make that mistake again.

If you are unsure that the sign posted is correct or not, then yes, the best thing to do is a 180 and get out. That way you left as soon as you got the notice (saw the sign.)

BUT, if you are sure the sign posted is not correct, then you are not breaking the law if you stay. The presence of a 51% sign doesn't automatically make the place off-limits, it is the official license and RED or BLUE that determines that.

And, again, I will bet there are very few places that have a bar area only that is 51%. If so, you can't leave that area with the drinks. If you can go out into the rest of the building, then the whole building is 51% if the license says SIGN=RED.

[fagancarco]

Don't sweat it. Finish your meal.

If you weapon is as concealed as it should be, you won't have a problem. If it's not...better get out fast and be more careful next time.

[Skiprr]

Don't sweat it. Finish your meal.

If you weapon is as concealed as it should be, you won't have a problem. If it's not...better get out fast and be more careful next time.

Seriously?

I mean, seriously?

[C-dub]

More likely, the owners got the standard kit of signs from TABC and mistakenly posted the 51% sign in the bar area because they do not understand the rules. I have seen this before (e.g., Hofbrau in San Antonio)

It's not exactly a mistake to place it in the bar area

Well... Texas Government Code 411.204 requires a 51% establishment to "prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c)."

See what I mean. I get out so little that I'm not even worried about running into an actual 51% place. Barely went to places like that when I was younger and really have no reason to go now.

The places I do go sometimes have a bar area and one can take their drinks to the tables. We're mostly talking about places like "On the Border" and various steak houses.

[fagancarco]

Don't sweat it. Finish your meal.

If you weapon is as concealed as it should be, you won't have a problem. If it's not...better get out fast and be more careful next time.

Seriously?

I mean, seriously?

What is it, exactly that you object to?

Don't you agree that the carrier should have checked the signage more carefully before being seated, even though it was posted in the wrong place?

Or do you think he should jump up and run out when he's 20 minutes into his meal, even though the signs were posted in the wrong place? (I'm reading his post to say that the sign was not at the door.)

[JKTex]

Don't sweat it. Finish your meal.

If you weapon is as concealed as it should be, you won't have a problem. If it's not...better get out fast and be more careful next time.

Seriously?

I mean, seriously?

What is it, exactly that you object to?

Don't you agree that the carrier should have checked the signage more carefully before being seated, even though it was posted in the wrong place?

Or do you think he should jump up and run out when he's 20 minutes into his meal, even though the signs were posted in the wrong place? (I'm reading his post to say that the sign was not at the door.)

When I read it, it read as you implied ignore the law because it wasn't convenient, regardless. But I'll add this, if you walk into a restaurant that happens to sell booze, or even has a small bar.........

51% signs have to be the most misunderstood and misused signs in the state. 51% means the "establishment" derives at least 51% of it's sales revenue from the sale of alcohol for on premises consumption. That also means there's likely sales tax implication if they exceed certain sales which is why you'll see some "bars" try to establish food sales or other non-booze related business as well.

A true 51% establishment should not be hard to identify. A bar, pool hall etc., some place where it's likely and probable that the majority of what people go there for is to drink. There are restaurants I've known that had huge happy hour and "social" business that battled to keep the right balance of food and booze and were regularly monitored by the local municipality for sales tax reasons. They would run big appetizer specials or some other kind of promotion to get people to buy more food. If you really aren't sure, go look for their liquor license. That is the 1 thing that should make you stay or run like heck for the front door.

[fagancarco]

Don't sweat it. Finish your meal.

If you weapon is as concealed as it should be, you won't have a problem. If it's not...better get out fast and be more careful next time.

Seriously?

I mean, seriously?

What is it, exactly that you object to?

Don't you agree that the carrier should have checked the signage more carefully before being seated, even though it was posted in the wrong place?

Or do you think he should jump up and run out when he's 20 minutes into his meal, even though the signs were posted in the wrong place? (I'm reading his post to say that the sign was not at the door.)

When I read it, it read as you implied ignore the law because it wasn't convenient, regardless. But I'll add this, if you walk into a restaurant that happens to sell booze, or even has a small bar.........

I apologize for not making my meaning clear. A bar is no place for a gun but many "family" restaurants now have bars, like Chili's and Applebees.

Most patrons to those places would not know if they were 51%ers or not. The signs need to be up and in the proper place.

[Keith B]

Don't sweat it. Finish your meal.

If you weapon is as concealed as it should be, you won't have a problem. If it's not...better get out fast and be more careful next time.

Seriously?

I mean, seriously?

What is it, exactly that you object to?

Don't you agree that the carrier should have checked the signage more carefully before being seated, even though it was posted in the wrong place?

Or do you think he should jump up and run out when he's 20 minutes into his meal, even though the signs were posted in the wrong place? (I'm reading his post to say that the sign was not at the door.)

When I read it, it read as you implied ignore the law because it wasn't convenient, regardless. But I'll add this, if you walk into a restaurant that happens to sell booze, or even has a small bar.........

I apologize for not making my meaning clear. A bar is no place for a gun but many "family" restaurants now have bars, like Chili's and Applebees.

Most patrons to those places would not know if they were 51%ers or not. The signs need to be up and in the proper place.

A Chili's or Applebee's will not be a 51% location.

As for signage, and it being visible, proper location or not, once you have seen the sign you have been notified. It is now your responsibility to ascertain if it is valid or not. At the time you are notified and if you are unsure, then you need to make every effort to leave the premise in the most expedient manner possible. For example, if in the middle of my meal, and possible to excuse myself and take the gun back to the car I would. If no one else with me, I would summon the server and request my check, quickly finish my meal and leave as fast as possible once I have settled the bill.

Bottom line, I know of very few locations that I would not know were 51% before entering. My suspicion is the location was improperly posted with a 51% sign. If I am at a location that doesn't seem to be 51% and I am relatively sure it is not, but they have the sign posted, then I would make every effort to take my gun back to the car, then reenter and look for their license and validate the signage. If it is valid, then I would not go back carrying. If it is not valid, then I would inform Management of their error. If they don't remove the sign, then contact the local TABC office and ask them to have the business properly post the locale.

[fagancarco]

I have seen the sign at only one Chilis. I didn't check to see if it was valid, just took my gun back to the car. Your advice is sound nevertheless,with one caveat.

Just as an old or improperly worded 30.06 makes it legal to carry in a establishment, a 51% sign improperly placed would do the same. I see no real difference. IMO

I'm open to correction if there's a legal opinion out there somewhere, or wording in the law I haven't seen.

[The Annoyed Man]

"Defense to prosecution" is a trio of words which is liberally sprinkled throughout the mishmash of laws which regulate CHL. I can't cite chapter and verse off the top of my head, but it was not that long ago that it became a requirement for (red) 51% establishments to conspicuously post their 51% signage at the establishment's entrance. This change made it a "defense to prosecution" for the armed CHL holder if he/she walked into a (red) 51% establishment, unawares that they were not supposed to be there because of that sign. If I recall correctly, the recent law allows for the CHL holder to leave the premises without being arrested, once they are apprised of the situation—same as with 30.06 signs which are not posted at the entrances.

"Defense to prosecution" doesn't mean a thing is legal. It means that you have a defense to prosecution if arrested, so long as you comply with the law once you realize that you've broken it.

I understand Skiprr's objection. You, I, we, all got our CHLs based on a demonstrated reputation of being law-abiding people. A law-abider is one who consciously abides by the law to the best of his abilities. Sometimes, this is not convenient. But being a law-abider means that you don't pick and choose which laws you will obey and which you won't obey based on convenience. Therefore, when entering an establishment with no signage at the door, and then seeing a prominently displayed 30.06 sign at the back of the lobby, a law-abiding person will turn around and walk out. He or she won't finish their business and then leave with it is convenient. The same applies to 51% signs which are not posted at the entrance. Entering such a business armed is still illegal, but you have a defense to prosecution because you did not receive effective notice at the entrance. However, once you have seen the sign, you have received effective notice. And if you stay even in the face of having received that notice, then you are not only in violation of the law, but you also no longer have a defense to prosecution.

The law says that, once you have been given effective notice, you have to leave. By leaving the building, you remain a law-abider. By staying, you become a law-breaker.

It really IS that clear and simple. Personally, I don't care what somebody else does. I am not responsible for the reliability of their moral compass. But I know what I have to do if I want to continue to call myself a law-abiding person. If you are the kind of person who would stay and finish their meal after they had received effective notice, then you are not a law-abider, no matter how much you try to dissemble and redirect. The law is the law. If you don't break it, you are law-abiding. If you break the law because you did not have effective notice, then the law grants you a defense to prosecution as long as you get right with the law.......in this case, by leaving as soon as notice is received. If you break the law because you did not have effective notice, and then you continue to break the law despite having received effective notice, then A) you cannot reasonably claim to be a law-abiding person; B) you no longer have a defense to prosecution; and C) you are now a petty criminal.

Way to go.