Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

[Keith B]

Also:

§ 30.04. BURGLARY OF VEHICLES. (a) A person commits an offense if, without the effective
consent of the owner, he breaks into or enters a vehicle or any part of a vehicle with intent to
commit any felony or theft.

(b) For purposes of this section, "enter" means to intrude:
(1) any part of the body; or
(2) any physical object connected with the body.

(c) For purposes of this section, a container or trailer carried on a rail car is a part of the
rail car.

Breaking into a car is burglary and deadly force is authorized.

I believe this is incorrect. 30.02 BURGLARY and 30.04 BURGLARY OF VEHICLES are two separate offenses. BURGLARY OF VEHICLES is not a subclass of BURGLARY, as they are peer sections (same level, not one nested within the other) of code. Otherwise, we would have to include 30.03 BURGLARY OF COIN-OPERATED OR COIN COLLECTION MACHINES as a justification for deadly force.
Also consider that in 9.42(2)(A), ROBBERY and AGGRAVATED ROBBERY are both listed. If BURGLARY OF VEHICLES was to be a justification for deadly force, it would have surely been specifically included in addition to BURGLARY.

Correct. 40khammer didn't post all of the statute. Here it is:

§ 30.04. BURGLARY OF VEHICLES. (a) A person commits an
offense if, without the effective consent of the owner, he breaks
into or enters a vehicle or any part of a vehicle with intent to
commit any felony or theft.
(b) For purposes of this section, "enter" means to intrude:
(1) any part of the body; or
(2) any physical object connected with the body.
(c) For purposes of this section, a container or trailer
carried on a rail car is a part of the rail car.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor
unless the vehicle or part of the vehicle broken into or entered is
a rail car, in which event the offense is a state jail felony.
(e) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor entered a rail car or any part of a rail car and was at
that time an employee or a representative of employees exercising a
right under the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. Section 151 et seq.).

So, this is separate from Burglary (30.02) which specifically states building or habitation. So, burglary of a motor vehicle is just a misdemeanor and does NOT justify use of deadly force unless it is occupied and then it falls under the Castle Doctrine.

[boba]

While you are correct, I do know that there are plenty of people in prison for Aggravated Assault with a Deadly Weapon for pointing a firearm at somebody and threatening them.

Were those folks justified in using force? Or were they the aggressors? Was pointing a gun at the other person a reaction to provocation or a reasonable response, immediately necessary to repel an imminent attack or unlawful use of force?

Good question! There are probably people in prison for aggravated assault who used a baseball bat, but that doesn't mean it's a crime if someone grabs a baseball bat and threatens a burglar at 3am.

Some of the comments remind me of the discussion about the difference between a good instructor and a great instructor. And a bad instructor.

A good CHL instructor would answer factually. A great instructor would answer the question factually, and then explain why it might be a bad idea even if it's legal. A bad instructor would misquote the law (through ignorance or intent) and mislead the student about the law, based on their personal biases.

[tommyg]

A 20K legal fee plus a big chance of going to jail is not worth it
to save property that is usually worth less than the legal fees.

I used to transport inmates on work release. I picked them up
at a state prison and drove them to work sites every day

By listening to them I learned a lot about how the system really works
A street wise ex con usually knows more about the Justice system than you think
They can often turn the tables on an unsuspecting victim. Crime victims often
face charges because a street wise crook can and will turn on you.
Remember a jail house lawyer ( inmate who has given himself some legal
training by hanging out in a prison law library)
is a professional of sorts . They will use their expertise against you.

If you go to jail even for a short stay you loose everything family job credit
your home and car ( you can't use it in jail anyway)will be reposessed.
Whatever a thief can take from you will be less than the total loss you
will endure due to a prison a prison sentence. Is this risk worth the value
of some property like a trailer, a lawnmower or anything else you have worth stealing???
Whatever someone tries to steal you will loose it if you go to jail or you probably will
be forced to sell it and give all of the money to a lawyer.

From what I've seen of prisons thay are some of the worst places on earth.
You can count on being beaten and have other things done to you that
you will not want. This behavior is common and the correction
officers can do little to stop it. The department of corrections
controls the doors to the outside and that is about it


Inside the inmates run the show. The penalty for telling a correction
officer on another inmate is death.

A lot of people on this forum don't like me or my posts but they have not had the
benefit of the expierence that I have had.

[40khammer]

The inmates do NOT run the show. If that's what you saw then you worked at a very poorly run prison. While it is true that the inmates have their own laws and do for the most part govern themselves, ultimately it is the correctional and administrative staff that "runs the show." I get tired of hearing people say "The inmates run the prison." This is not true. If the correctional officers are doing their job right then all the inmates do is run each other. And while it's true that the penalty for being a "snitch" is severe....it happens more than you will ever imagine. The large majority of "busts" that occur in the prison system are a result of "snitching."

Now, back in the 80s and before, the inmates did run the show. There were certain inmates that were called "building tenders" They literally beat any other inmates that got out of line with a stick. All the staff did was open and close doors. This is no longer how it works though.

[tbrown]

By listening to them I learned a lot about how the system really works
A street wise ex con usually knows more about the Justice system than you think
They can often turn the tables on an unsuspecting victim. Crime victims often
face charges because a street wise crook can and will turn on you.
Remember a jail house lawyer ( inmate who has given himself some legal
training by hanging out in a prison law library)
is a professional of sorts . They will use their expertise against you.

Dead men tell no lies.

[speedsix]

...no, but the living tell enough to make up for that...

[johnson0317]

Stephen,

I give up. You are right. It is best to not carry a weapon because there is some chance a store might ban all CHL carry, the court system might work against you, and the inmates at the prison you will end up at will want to marry you. The ability to protect oneself, and ones family, is just not worth it when you realize everyone you run up against is smarter than you, better than you, and better able to use the system than you are. You are lost. Just walk with your head down, your wallet in your hand, and your dignity in the trash.

I guess I will just take the XDm 9mmm out of my SuperTuck and lock it up for the last time...

...like hell.

[speedsix]

...we can choose to live in fear...or freedom...but not both...it's a shame when some choose to live in fear, when so many have put their lives on the line for freedom...

[tommyg]

Inmates do not run the show on paper
By law they don't run the show
The issue is that inmates have a tendency to ignore laws
If they didn't ignore laws they wouldn't be in jail
Behind the walls they run the show anyway legal or illegal
they flat don't care.

Wake up don't use deadly force against
anyone to protect property

Only use deadly force to save your life or another innocent life

I transported inmates from prison to work release I've seen it

Most CHL have not seen the inside of a prison since felony conviction equals denial for a CHL

If you can't understand this get a job in a jail for awhile and see the real world
Amen

[johnson0317]

Oh, Goodness...

You have finally convinced even me...

...you are a troll.

"Wake up don't use deadly force against
anyone to protect property"

Why in the name of the Lord would you preach to never use deadly force against a home invader? If there is one thing that Texas laws protect you against, it is going to jail for shooting some yahoo that breaches your castle's walls. If someone has broken in to my home, are you suggesting I wait until I am sure he wants to harm me or my family before taking action? If a person is stupid enough to break into another person's home, they are stupid enough to harm the occupants. After all, isn't that what you are preaching about, how convicts could care less what the laws are?

Waffle head.

RJ

[C-dub]

I'm seeing a lot of answers on here and none that are really correct.

I would assume what you're asking is regarding theft. If you saw someone trying to steal your truck while you're not in it, or even taking stuff out of the back of your truck, that is theft. Robbery is different and has a different definition.

So it really depends on the situation. If someone walks up to you and says "Give me your wallet" then that's a robbery and deadly force is legal in Texas at all times.

If someone's stealing the tools out of the back of your truck, you may use deadly force in Texas only if the theft is occurring at night AND if you reasonably believe you cannot recover the property by any other means. Note that the law says "recover" and not "replace".

Also, "nighttime" also has a legal definition. It is the period 30 minutes after sunset to 30 minutes before sunrise.

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Looking at Sec. 31.03, Theft http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /Pe.31.htm it seems like the definition of theft is a very basic one. However, the definition of burglary and burglary of a vehicle (30.02 and 30.04), which do not include the "at night time" requirement, as stated in 9.42 above, would allow the use of deadly force for someone taking the tools or anything else out of my truck during the day or night. However, since 9.42 does not specifically say burglary of a vehicle, but only burglary, your interpretation might still be correct.

[tommyg]

I did not say anything about not shooting home intruders
I did say don't shoot to protect property
I think some of the "TROLLS" out there are putting words in my mouth
If you want to shoot to protect property you better have 100k or more
for a lawyer or no plans for the next few years.

If you shoot to save a lawnmower in a shed you risk living with a bunch of Trolls
And I'm not talking about the online type

If some one invades your home that is a another matter do what you have to do

You can bash me as much as you want I hope you Enjoy your new uniform and free food and lodging
And your job making license plates

oh yes no more guns if and when you get out

[40khammer]

Inmates do not run the show on paper
By law they don't run the show
The issue is that inmates have a tendency to ignore laws
If they didn't ignore laws they wouldn't be in jail
Behind the walls they run the show anyway legal or illegal
they flat don't care.

Wake up don't use deadly force against
anyone to protect property

Only use deadly force to save your life or another innocent life

I transported inmates from prison to work release I've seen it

Most CHL have not seen the inside of a prison since felony conviction equals denial for a CHL

If you can't understand this get a job in a jail for awhile and see the real world
Amen

I did not say anything about not shooting home intruders
I did say don't shoot to protect property
I think some of the "TROLLS" out there are putting words in my mouth
If you want to shoot to protect property you better have 100k or more
for a lawyer or no plans for the next few years.

If you shoot to save a lawnmower in a shed you risk living with a bunch of Trolls
And I'm not talking about the online type

If some one invades your home that is a another matter do what you have to do

You can bash me as much as you want I hope you Enjoy your new uniform and free food and lodging
And your job making license plates

oh yes no more guns if and when you get out

You're contradicting yourself man.

[Keith B]

OK folks, there are some personal attacks in here. Keep the dicussion civil or the thread will be locked.

[Keith B]

Stephen,

Did you actually work as a uniformed corrections officer or were you just a driver that 'heard' the stories from prisoners or guards? I have a several relatives that are currently or have been corrections officers in both state and federal medium and maximum security prisons for many years. Prisoners and even some guards like to exaggerate a little (lot) and make it sound worse than it is. If the prison is ran right, they are totally controlled by the corrections system and its staff, NOT the prisoners.

Now, there is a code of how you handle yourself as a prisoner with the other prisoners, and squealing is not accepted. But that is the same as school and ratting out your classmate. It may result in a worse beating for you in prison, but it is not liked.

On to protecting property. I don't disagree that there is some property not worth shooting someone over. An example is if I see them coming out of my house with my 36" television and loading it on a truck. If no family or others are in harms way, then I will let them go on and take it. A $500 television is not worth spending thousands of dollars in legal fees and the hassle that goes with it. I will get a good description, license number, etc, and make sure they don't look to harm me, and let them go. The police can take it from there. However, if they are stealing my vehicle, then I may hold them at gunpoint or shoot them to prevent it. A $40K car is worth protecting.

Bottom line, you have to make your own decisions at what point you are willing to defend your property and or life and health. When you choose to carry under a firearm for protection you must draw your line in the sand and determine where the line is crossed. And, if someone crosses that line, then you have to be willing to do whatever is necessary, including shooting them to stop the aggression. If you are not willing to draw that line and follow through, then carrying a gun may be worse than not having one at all and doing what you can to retreat or face the consequences of not being able to protect yourself.