The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

[Charles L. Cotton]

I was very hesitant to post this, but it is information that our Members need to know. Let me say up front that I know how some folks are going to respond, but I'm not trying to start a philosophical discussion/argument. I'm concerned about the real world response we can expect to see in the Texas Legislature.

Non-resident licenses from other states are again being pushed by some Texas instructors as a way to circumvent the requirements for obtaining a Texas CHL. This time, however, there's a new twist. At least one West Virginia resident is offering an online Virginia class that's one hour long and obviously requires no shooting. (He's charging $50 for the one hour course!) He's targeting six states: Texas, Ohio, Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee and North Carolina. http://onlinegunclass.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We were able to defeat Rep. Lon Burnam's HB356 during this year's session primarily because Lon has an "F" rating and our friends didn't want to sign onto anything he filed, and because Utah changed its law. Now, in addition to the Texas based Utah instructors pitching Florida classes, we have a resident of Virginia pitching a 1 hr. online course. It's bad enough when Texas residents don't care what they are going to bring about by pitching licenses from other states, but this Virginia online course may well be the last straw. No one likes to have people challenge their authority, whether it's a parent, an employer, or the Texas Legislature. What infuriates me is a small number of people are willing to do this to make a buck and don't care in the least that Texans have to live with the consequences of their actions.

At the very least, we can count on seeing a bill filed in 2013 that will require Texas residents to carry only on a Texas CHL. At worst, we may see the reciprocity we currently enjoy with a huge number of states diminished significantly. And don't think that another F-rated Representative will be selected to carry the bill.

Don't bother telling me that these people are just trying to make it easier and cheaper for us Texans. No they aren't; they only want to make money. I wish we didn't have to have any license to carry and I wish I could live to see the day when Chp. 46 of the Penal Code is repealed. But until those days come, we have to deal with the real world and continued flaunting of Legislative authority is not going to be acceptable to those in Austin.

So what can we do? We can't do much of anything to stop instructors pushing these courses, but we can certainly work to remove to primary reasons non-resident licenses are attractive. We'll never get a 1 hr. online course, so I won't even try. However, as I suggested to Alice Tripp, we should reduce the initial course from 10 hours to 4 hrs exclusive of range time. (There would be no minimum time on the range.) I have some other ideas about the range requirement, but I can't disclose that now.

Another thing we need to do is repeal that portion of the Government Code that defines "conviction" to include successfully completed deferred adjudications, for CHL eligibility purposes. That's absurd!! To my knowledge, no other state does that and I have asked people from all over the country. It's also unfair since people taking deferred adjudications were told by their attorney, the prosecutor and sometimes even the judge, that a deferred adjudication isn't a conviction and it won't cause you any problems later. A lot of innocent people take a deferred adjudication because they can't afford to pay an attorney to try the case.

Finally, things can be done to significantly reduce the cost of processing CHL applications and this might support a fee reduction. That said, the money doesn't go to DPS, it goes into the State's General Fund, and if the budget is still bad in 2013, we won't see a fee reduction.

This is going to be a problem in 2013, and you can take that to the bank.

Chas.

[OldCannon]

Just seems to me that if you're a Texas resident, you should play by the Texas rules. Want to get a "cheap" license so you can travel to states that are non-reciprocal with Texas? Fine, but it doesn't "count" in Texas.

[tbrown]

Other than lost revenue to certain special interests, what's the difference between Jim and Bob carrying in Texas on a Virginia license? Assume Jim and Bob don't live in the same state and one may or may not live in Texas.

Reducing the cost of the Texas CHL is the best idea to make the Texas CHL competitive. Maybe change the cost to $50 for all Texas residents (public and private sector, young and old) and $100 for non-residents. Like tuition.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Other than lost revenue to certain special interests, what's the difference between Jim and Bob carrying in Texas on a Virginia license?

That's not the issue. The Legislature's response is of immediate importance to Texans and non-residents who want to carry in Texas on another license. The easiest thing for the Legislature to do is copy some other states that only recognize "resident licenses." That hurts visitors from "may issue" states who can't get a resident license and get one from another state.

Fee reductions won't happen in a down economy and I doubt we'll be in great shape in 2013.

Chas.

[tbrown]

If fee reductions aren't a possibility, the special interests will either have to pass anti-RKBA anti-reciprocity legislation, or learn to live with a "problem" that's not really a problem except in their minds and their pocketbooks.

A Virginia license is a Virginia license, whether or not Jim, Bob, or Jim Bob live in Virginia. Logically speaking, the race, religion and state of residence of the license holder is irrelevant to whether a Virgina license is "good enough" to allow a Virginia license holder to carry in Texas. Either VA is worthy of reciprocity or it's not. Maybe it isn't.

[Charles L. Cotton]

If fee reductions aren't a possibility, the special interests will either have to pass anti-RKBA anti-reciprocity legislation, or learn to live with a "problem" that's not really a problem except in their minds and their pocketbooks.

A Virginia license is a Virginia license, whether or not Jim, Bob, or Jim Bob live in Virginia. Logically speaking, the race, religion and state of residence of the license holder is irrelevant to whether a Virgina license is "good enough" to allow a Virginia license holder to carry in Texas. Either VA is worthy of reciprocity or it's not. Maybe it isn't.

This is exactly the philosophical discussion I had hoped to avoid. You are ignoring political reality.

The same argument could be made about driver's licenses, yet Texas will recognize other states' licenses only until the person becomes a Texas resident. Then their out-of-state driver's license won't be recognized in Texas. That's a powerful argument for our opponents.

Chas.

[speedsix]

..."10% ruining it for all of us" strikes again...motivated by greed and no concern about what effect it has on the CHL movement...

[Dragonfighter]

Charles,

Is there maybe some legal means by which we can shut these yahoos down. Possibly a preemptive strike by getting someone to introduce a bill making these guys illegal, not the permits?

[apostate]

Charles,

Is there maybe some legal means by which we can shut these yahoos down. Possibly a preemptive strike by getting someone to introduce a bill making these guys illegal, not the permits?

It seems like a West Virginian is offering classes for a Virginian license. The Texas Legislature has no authority to regulate the WV instructor teaching the class nor the VA State Police issuing the license.

However, the Virginia Legislature could pass a law requiring classes to be conducted in Virginia, in person, to satisfy their CHP training requirement. That may be your best shot.

[MoJo]

Charles,

I can see the legislature doing many things, the least is to say only resident permits are recognized in Texas to "Californianaizing" our CHL law. One hour online and 50 bucks and you are good to go. It's going to be very tempting to the "How can I get by?" crowd.

I don't know the solution except for education of the public.

[blue]

X2 the $50 Texas CHL....
-----------------------------------

THE answer to a bunch of problems.

CHL has proven itself in Texas and the citizens of Texas deserve to have a reasonable
($50) CHL the very next session.

This should be #1 priority, and PUSHED HARD, as it effects so many Texas citizens.


(If we don't ask they cannot say yes!)

[srothstein]

Charles,

I think you are correct on the way to handle this. We need to lower the price of a CHL overall though I don't see that happening soon. We can make the class easier to get (even an on-line class with a real range test) or shorter. The on-line class could be more than the classroom class (say 4 hours in classroom and 8 hours on-line) and I would still say it is an improvement.

And we can realistically say that we could accept the resident license for Texas residents IF we get some significant other improvement in its place. My opinion on the political realities of this (and yours would be much better than mine) is that this might be a battle we cannot win right now. If that is true, use it to get some other concessions we do want that we might not get otherwise.

As Kenny Rogers (and Bobby Bare for the older country crowd) sang: You have to know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away, and know when to run.

[G.A. Heath]

Charles,

Is there maybe some legal means by which we can shut these yahoos down. Possibly a preemptive strike by getting someone to introduce a bill making these guys illegal, not the permits?

It seems like a West Virginian is offering classes for a Virginian license. The Texas Legislature has no authority to regulate the WV instructor teaching the class nor the VA State Police issuing the license.

However, the Virginia Legislature could pass a law requiring classes to be conducted in Virginia, in person, to satisfy their CHP training requirement. That may be your best shot.

I think I see what Dragonfighter is trying get across. Rather than allow other state's classes to be taught in Texas, make it law that only a Texas CHL class can be taught in Texas. Unfortunately that might have some negative effects that I would rather not go into. I think a 4 hour + range time course would be ideal, and that falls in line with my wish of making the Texas CHL easier for people to get. The problem that we will encounter with making it easier for people to get the Texas CHL is that we will encounter the Brady's, and associates, screaming "The NRA/TSRA/whoever wants to let criminals carry a concealed handgun by removing the prohibition on criminals who have successfully completed deferred adjudication." They will probably follow that up with "after that who knows, maybe they will want to let wife beaters carry guns next!" The good news is that the NRA, TSRA, and Charles have seen this all before and know what their doing as well as knowing how to counter those arguments. As for reducing the fee for a CHL, I doubt there is anything we can do legislatively that will not hurt us on other fronts.

I can see a bill that would require a resident license to carry being amended to reduce the fee in an effort to poison pill it, but it could as easily get us reduced fees and no out of state licenses for residents. We can also look at how to influence a bill to limit non-resident licenses to minimise the damage. So lets say a bill looks to have a good chance of passing, we can amend it so that only Texas residents are required to have a Texas License to carry or similar language. The problem with that is past/current/future/potential allies and enemies alike will attack us for doing it. My personal opinion is that we should also entertain a Hail Mary type bill that would be so offensive to the anti's that it would draw a very significant portion of their attention and effort to kill, and if that bill actually makes it into law even better (I have have a few ideas, but I don't want to go into them at this time). Such a strategy would use political capital that we would prefer to be spent elsewhere (because it has to look like a real effort) so it is not something that the NRA/TSRA really want to do. Although you can see how effective such a strategy is by looking at how Campus Carry helped us with our other two flagship bills this session by drawing a lot of the anti's political capital (although it's not a Hail Mary type deal).

But as tired as I am I need to quit rambling and get some rest so I can think straight.

[wharvey]

I figured that in the not too distant future Texas would say that a license from another state wouldn't be valid for a Texas resident to carrying in Texas. In fact one of the first questions I posted on this forum was if I could still use my Indiana license to carry in Texas after moving here because I doubted that it would. It is also the reason I went on and got my Texas carry license after moving back here, even though my Indiana license is still valid.

Actually I can see a very valid argument against its use. Folks keep pointing out there should be no need for formal reciprocity agreements just like there are not for drivers license. Well as pointed out in an earlier post, you can't keep using your former state's drivers license when moving here, or any other state for that matter.

I do think the cost in Texas is out of line and while I can't fine a table comparing fees I suspect is one of the highest of the shall issue states. Adding the required training the cost of my Texas license came very close to $300 including the ammo for the range part. My 4 year Indiana licenses were costing $40 and when they started issuing lifetime licenses the cost was $100 since I already had a license. I think it would have been $140 without it. A lot more reasonable.

[Commander Cody]

I have a Utah CFP that I acquired in October of 2009 after taking the class from Mr. Cotton. I did not do this to save money or forgo the range portion of the test or even for less class time. I did this for coverage of time in case my Texas CHL expired while I waited for my renewal of my Texas CHL to arrive. When I took my Texas CHL class from Mr. El Gato in January of 2008 times were tough. Although I was fortunate and it only took 59 days for my plastic to arrive, many were waiting for months longer. I think the 10 hour class was worthwhile. The range portion of the class was worthwhile as well. Although it is not difficult to score well, I think gun safety is foremost. If a person cannot handle a gun safely they have no business with a CHL. That said the second amendment does not say a person’s right to keep and bear arms includes being able to shoot well, or be safe for that matter. But it matters to me.

The Texas fee ain't THAT bad either.