Hypothetical Discussion

[Limey Hooligan]

OK, here's a what-if question I'd like to get yous guys' opinion on:

I'm a fairly big guy (six four, 235), and given the "means-intent-ability" criteria for drawing my weapon, I'd have to be pretty much attacked by someone with a weapon of their own, or multiple people at once in order to justify pulling out my gun. Obviously, some dude coming up to fight it out with me bare handed would not consitute a situation where I could draw my weapon. My wife, on the other hand, is five three and 110, so if a guy my size attacks her the disparity of force in that situation would allow her to pull her gun (in the majority of juror's eyes, I would think).

So, say I'm carrying and some dude jumps me and we do get into a wrestling/fisticuffs match. In that situation, what if my gun falls out of it's holster (quite likely)? Or what if he gets his hands on it without even knowing it was there in the first place? Now there's a deadly weapon involved, which we're now going to be fighting over just because it's there.

Am I now justified in using it? On the "ability" part, he would now have the ability to wrestle the gun from me and do some serious damage, so it has now escalated to a life-or-death situation.

I'd appreciate any comments or thoughts on this scenario....

[Teamless]

disparity in force is one thing, but for me it comes down to the question:
"Am I in fear for my life or severe bodily injury" (this could also be that I fear for others as well)

If I answer yes, regardless of size differences, I feel I should draw and can draw legally.

I am not as tall as you, but I have you beat in weight.
I am about 6' and 250lbs, most people see me and say I look like a big guy.
But I am over 40, not in the best shape (round!)and while I probably could defend myself against someone else, (depending on what they are doing) I am not sure myself that I could, and come out unharmed, as I have never had to fight (since I was a small child anyway).

So while there is the clause about "what would a reasonable person do", I think I know what I am capable of doing and fighting is not one of those things, even though I probably could outweigh my attacker.

You are 6'4, even in a good shape (and I would say that 235 at 6'4 is probably good shape), that doesn't mean that a scrappy 170lb 5'9 person couldn't run circles around out and couldn't harm you seriously.

[RPBrown]

disparity in force is one thing, but for me it comes down to the question:
"Am I in fear for my life or severe bodily injury" (this could also be that I fear for others as well)

If I answer yes, regardless of size differences, I feel I should draw and can draw legally.

I am not as tall as you, but I have you beat in weight.
I am about 6' and 250lbs, most people see me and say I look like a big guy.
But I am over 40, not in the best shape (round!)and while I probably could defend myself against someone else, (depending on what they are doing) I am not sure myself that I could, and come out unharmed, as I have never had to fight (since I was a small child anyway).

So while there is the clause about "what would a reasonable person do", I think I know what I am capable of doing and fighting is not one of those things, even though I probably could outweigh my attacker.

You are 6'4, even in a good shape (and I would say that 235 at 6'4 is probably good shape), that doesn't mean that a scrappy 170lb 5'9 person couldn't run circles around out and couldn't harm you seriously.

Although I agree with the post above, to answer the specific questions as you asked:
1) If you were to lose your weapon in the altercation and if the other person did get it and had intentions to use it against you, unless you had a BUG you would be unarmed in the situation that you posted.
2) So lets say you do have a BUG, then I would say that you are justified in using deadly force at that point.

Now, size, although a portion of the problem, is not the only issue. I am 6'4 and 260ish but have a bad back, bad knees, and generally old and out of shape. With that I may be justified in more cases than you would be.

[MoJo]

If someone is angry enough to attack you then, they are a threat to your life. One punch landed to the right place can kill regardless how big, strong, young or old the person is. Fists are deadly weapons. I've seen several big guys being whipped by somebody half their size. We are all responsible for our own salvation.

[2farnorth]

You have no way of knowing the attitude or the training of the aggressor. Some small people can handle a big guy with ease if they know what they are doing. You may be stronger but he CAN use your size and weight against you. Most who have had the training to this capability don't use it aggressively but you have to always fear an unknown element in any fight. I don't like pain so I'll keep the aggressor out of reach of my body. Overconfidence kills.

[Beiruty]

1) De-escalation
2) Avoid a fist fight as much as possible
3) Keep control of your firearm, at all cost. i.e. Don't get disarmed.
4) If shots are fired, then see 5)
5) Your fate is in the hand of jury of your peers, or you all already dead.

[Dan20703]

The way I look at it there are no fist fights while carrying. Mabye just enough hand to hand combat to let me get out of reach or striking distance to draw but no more. If the threat kept coming at that point it would be clear to me that the individual means to harm me and that is all I need to justify deadly force to protect myself. If the individual backs down when I draw then I would remove myself to a safe place and immediately call 911.

Trying to have a "fair" fight while carrying can never go the right direction. As you mentioned, the gun could come out of the holster and be available to whoever gets to it first, not good. The other individual could discover your gun by contact and then escalate the intensity to a kill or be killed level.

[Limey Hooligan]

All good points guys...

I know that I'd never provoke a fist fight while carrying, and avoid one at all costs. My hypothetical was around getting jumped by someone, I suppose. But it looks like the best response is to treat it as any other attack and be prepared to draw, you can't assume to be able to defend yourself without doing so. The other guy may be a 6th degree black belt or MMA practitioner and cause some real damage regardless of size.

[speedsix]

...assuming you haven't instigated or provoked the battle...you're not required to take a beating before responding...if your mind is reasonably satisfied with what the law requires, don't be hesitant to use deadly force to stop the aggressor...and be ready to reasonably explain to a grand jury why you did what you did...I'm an ex-cop and former Marine...but not in shape at my age to use what I was taught so long ago...I'm not gonna pull a "Walker" on someone who attacks me...(but it will be .45)

[The Annoyed Man]

Now, size, although a portion of the problem, is not the only issue. I am 6'4 and 260ish but have a bad back, bad knees, and generally old and out of shape. With that I may be justified in more cases than you would be.

If someone is angry enough to attack you then, they are a threat to your life. One punch landed to the right place can kill regardless how big, strong, young or old the person is. Fists are deadly weapons. I've seen several big guys being whipped by somebody half their size. We are all responsible for our own salvation.

Exactly. In the last dojo I studied in, there was a little Puerto Rican dude with an 8th Dan who was the size of a flea. I once watched him completely manhandle a 6'4" 240 lb 5th Dan in a sparring match.

Disparity of force arguments might mean something and be easily definable when you're talking about a 92 lb granny versus a 240 lb aggressor; but in most situations your disparity of force is much harder to prove, and I don't believe that you need to absorb any more abuse than a smaller person before defending yourself. You don't know if that smaller person has a knife until he gets in close enough that your pistol is next to useless, for instance, in which your larger size is no longer really an advantage.

If someone attempts to get physical with me, my gun is coming out. I don't care how big or small they are. Now, in my case, I have some significant disability that balances the disparity of force in favor of the other guy, even if he's smaller than my 5' 10", mumble-ten lb frame. But he has no way of knowing that when he starts his aggression. The way I see it, if a smaller person assaults a larger person, the smaller person is pretty confident that they have the upper hand—so perceived disparity of force is irrelevant unless it is a really stark difference such as the aforementioned granny versus a thug.

[RHenriksen]

So, say I'm carrying and some dude jumps me and we do get into a wrestling/fisticuffs match. In that situation, what if my gun falls out of it's holster (quite likely)?

A couple of thoughts:

If a little guy is going to try and take you on, he's already got something on his side. It might be an overdose of liquid confidence; it might be an 8th degree black belt; it might be the knife in his pocket you haven't seen yet; it might be his 5 cousins in the crowd. He's already demonstrated he's a threat by starting something.

And if you have that little confidence in the retention capabilities of your holster, I would encourage you to look for alternatives. I did that with one of mine - it no longer gets used because the retention was poor.

[Jumping Frog]

The way I look at it there are no fist fights while carrying.

I never lose sight of the fact that every encounter -- PERIOD -- is an armed encounter by the very fact that I am armed.

It influences how I interact with other people, how I choose to de-escalate, how I choose to retreat if I can do so safely, and how I choose to defend myself. There have been a lot of police officers killed by weapon retention failures and they are trained in weapon retention. I am not similarly trained, therefore it is even more critical that I defend myself before it reaches the stage of potentially losing control of my firearm.

Also, I have a brother who experienced a traumatic brain injury (TBI). It has made me even more aware of the issues and vulnerabilities associated with TBI's. I don't need to be in fear for my life to use deadly force, simply being in fear of serious bodily injury is sufficient. Believe me, after seeing the effects of TBI up close and personal, it definitely qualifies as "serious bodily injury".

(3) "Deadly force" means force that is intended or known by the actor to cause, or in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing, death or serious bodily injury.

[boba]

I will do what I need to do to survive. There's no reason to invite arrest and prosecution if my life isn't in danger, but I'm not going to risk death or serious bodily injury just to avoid the possibility of a legal battle.

[Oldgringo]

I will do what I need to do to survive. There's no reason to invite arrest and prosecution if my life isn't in danger, but I'm not going to risk death or serious bodily injury just to avoid the possibility of a legal battle.

That makes sense. All of these thugs you guys see are in places where I ain't. Hmmm, I wonder why that is?

[boba]

Because we have to work?