My problems at range today- help requested

[AJMag]

Today was the second time I've hit the range this week to work on few things. In order to save money I've been doing A LOT of .22 shooting to work on target aquisition mainly, among a few other things. All that goes pretty good. I've gotten better at sight alignment and quicker at picking up my intended target, but I feel like it's coming with a cost. That cost is the transition back to my EDC(M&P9c). There's a lot different between the two that aren't too big of a deal, I can still pick up the sights and do reloads without much effort despite the differences, but the recoil and trigger differences seem to reall get me. It's a guaranteed that the first few shots are going to be way off, well up to 6 inches off target.

So my first questions is does anyone have any kind of suggestions on drills or ways to adapt myself better towards being ready for the differences in recoil?

My other issue that I noticed today is that something is messing with my grouping between target ammo and SD rounds. Even after I readjust myself to the 9mm shooting WWB 115 gr FMJ at 10 yds, I'm holding tights groups where I'm aiming, usually with holes touching or close to. Upon switching to 124 gr Gold Dots or 124 gr PDX1, my groups drop anywhere from 3.5 to 5 inches low of aim and aren't holding very close. Go back to WWB and dead on, switch back and low. I've shot both of these rounds a lot and have always been accurate, so I'm not sure if it's me, the gun, the rounds, or what. I had this same issue on Monday.

So has anyone experienced POI differences like this or could there be something I'm not aware that I'm doing? Could it actually be the equipment? I feel like I'm in a rut at the moment and I'm definately going to have to get my Dad to give it a shot and see what he does. I have a feeling I'm going to have to shell out a bunch of cash now that I don't really have and do a range trip with a few boxes of different SD to do some experimenting, but this is something that desperately needs to get fixed.

Any and all advise is very much appreciated and thanks in advance for any help.

[gringop]

Rimfire practice is good for some things and bad for other things.

Rimfire is good for things that don't involve recovering from recoil .

one shot draws (or press outs)
one shot each transitions between targets
slow bullseye accuracy practice

Rimfire is bad for for things that involve recovering from recoil, pretty much any multiple shot strings.

In your specific problem, it sounds like you've shot so much rimfire that you've developed a flinch with 9mm.
Your brain knows that you're shooting 9, your ears hear 9mm noise and your instincts want to control that greater recoil.

The first step is to double up with earpro. Use disposable plugs and good muffs, especially if you are shooting indoors.
The next step is to dry fire. Dry fire at the range 5 times, load one live round, shoot it and repeat. Don't worry if you aren't getting a tight group during this. You are training to get rid of a flinch. Concentrate on getting a surprise trigger break. Don't crush through to make the shot go off RIGHT NOW. Let the pressure on the trigger increase until the gun goes off, SURPRISE!

In addition to dryfire, do the ball and dummy drill.
http://pistol-training.com/drills/ball-dummy-drill" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You don't need to have a partner load your mags, you can take 4 live rounds and 2 dummy rounds, shake them up in your hands and load the mag without looking at it.
You can mix your WWB and your Gold Dots and do the same thing.

Once you work out the flinch issue, then you can go back to stressing over your group size. If the flinch comes back, do some of these drills again.

I've been shooting competitively for 15 years, I still shoot the ball and dummy at every practice.

Gringop

[AJMag]

Cool, Thanks. That sounds like something good to try and work on.

I'm not stressing so much on group size, as possible differences in the ammo and POI results. Once I get back to comfortable with the 9 and have good shot placement, it's the difference in impact of the SD rounds, in this case seeming as though they tend to shoot low consistantly, while the WWB shoots and hits where I put them.

I definately feel the need to experiment and familiarize myself with quickly adapting and adjusting to different triggers and pulls. I don't shoot my LCP very often because it's so far off from SAO that I causes Major flinching. And I"m the type that wants to be 100% proficient with every firearm I can, just having trouble finding the best way to improve my learning and ability to switch between calibers and firearm types without having to "relearn" the weapon system.

I'll definately give your suggetions a go, and any others that may be out there.

[MoJo]

It's not too unusual for different weight bullets to have different points of impact but, what you are describing sounds like a shooter problem. You may have developed a flinch or some other problem. Put the .22 away and concentrate on the 9mm. Go for quality practice not quantity. 25 rounds fired carefully and with concentration will beat 100 rounds fired sloppily. Dry fire is what you do in quantity live fire to verify you are doing it right.

Down load and print this target https://home.comcast.net/~GreatDaneBMX/ ... Letter.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if you are right handed or this one https://home.comcast.net/~GreatDaneBMX/ ... Letter.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if left handed. Either shoot at the target or compare it to where you are hitting to diagnose your problems.

It's not all that unusual for a shooter, especially a new shooter, to hit a plateau and need to do some serious reprogramming. Sometimes a few weeks off is all the medicine you need.

Good luck!

[Texas Dan Mosby]

So my first questions is does anyone have any kind of suggestions on drills or ways to adapt myself better towards being ready for the differences in recoil?

Nothing highlights fundamental errors like an increase in power factor.



Pretty much any low(er) power arm has the potential to make a shooter lazy, and not apply the same sound fundamentals they would with a more powerful arm, simply because they don't HAVE to in order to place the round where they want it, when they want to put it there. Understand that I am NOT taking ANYTHING away from those precision shooters who can shoot the eye out of a gnat at 50M with a .22. I'm talking about the knuckle-draggers like myself who focus more on defensive accuracy vs. the precision needed for bullseye.

I'd recommend two things that will improve your shooting, and ANY shooter, who wants to ratchet it up a notch.

First, take a formal class appropriate for your level. Whether it is a basic course, or a course designed for a more seasoned shooter, you DON'T know WHAT you don't know. Formal instruction from a decent instructor will either teach you something you didn't know, OR, may expose you to a different, or more efficient, approach to something you DO know. If you have never had formalized instruction that covers the basic fundamentals, than the odds are good that you DON'T understand the basic fundamentals, and are not applying them. Expert shooters are experts because they have mastered the fundamentals, regardless of what they shoot.

Second, learn how to dry fire, and incorporate it into your life, and into your live fire training. Shooting is as much a mental function as it is a physical function, and dry firing is the way to build the mental bridge from mind to body. A lot of folks don't know HOW to dry fire, and simply think it's a physical effort without putting much thought into it at all, hence, they don't get much out of it. Think of the dry fire as a rehearsal of both mind and body. Run through a sequential check list of the fundamentals in your mind, and check to make sure you are a go before moving on. With repetition, you will wire your mind and body to do the right thing without making a conscious effort to do so, and you will develop good habits that carry over to live fire. The first thing I do when I live fire is to start off with some good old fashioned grouping drills, and before I send rounds down range, I do dry fire rehearsals to get in the proper mindset.

Stance - Feet spread comfortably apart for balance, non-firing foot slightly forward, knee's flexed and weight forward for recoil management / impact facilitation (GO!)

Grip - Pistol seated as high as possible in the webbing between the thumb and trigger finger of the control hand, front to rear pressure (GO!)
-support hand as high as possible, arm extended, thumb oriented toward target, side to side pressure doing most of the work (GO!)
Aiming - Do I see what I need to see for the given target at the given range (GO!)

Etcetera, right on down the list.....

As I run through the checklist, more often than not, I will pick up any fundamental errors I am making and be able to correct them on the spot. Once I get in "the zone", I'll start the live fire process. If I start to bone things up during live fire, I'll cease, and do some work dry until I get the right mindset back.

Dry fire is crucial, and while you MUST live fire in order to improve, dry fire facilitates that improvement, and can help sustain over all proficiency.

The last thing I'll toss in is.......

Shoot with a partner who also knows the fundamentals.

From dry fire, to live fire, there is nothing like having the instant feedback provided from a buddy who can see and tell you what you are dorking up. From "too much trigger finger" to "breaking your grip" or "slow down bonehead", a good partner can find those little things you are doing that are either eating up time or accuracy.

Best of luck.

[AJMag]

Shoot with a partner who also knows the fundamentals.

I think I definately learned this last night. I had a conversation with my pops explaining what I was reading and hearing about the mistakes I was making and what I needed to try to do to fix them, starting with taking a couple weeks away from the range and a little less .22. It really hit me that while it's good father/son time, he's not the ideal shooting partner, mainly because he's not in it for the same reason's I am. He didn't really understand why I wanted my CHL and is one of those who thinks it's useless and that I'll never need it. well hopefully he's right, of course. But he's only at the range to have fun, and we had a little clash last night when I told him that the .22 was hendering my ability to maintain proficient with my EDC. Again, he doesn't see the big deal and just wants to go play at the range.

I think I'll definately be looking into taking some classes at SGA here soon, and when I rebuild my bank supply. I'm still pretty new to the area, and starting college next week(about 10 years late, might I add), so I haven't met anybody else to visit a range with. I'm going to have to change that. Thanks for some great input, and the link to that pistol training website, read through that for a long while last night, great stuff in there.

[flechero]

Shoot 2-3 rounds of 44 mag between the .22 and the 9mm and then your brain will think the 9mm is the 22lr. Problem solved.

[raptor]

In your specific problem, it sounds like you've shot so much rimfire that you've developed a flinch with 9mm.
Your brain knows that you're shooting 9, your ears hear 9mm noise and your instincts want to control that greater recoil.

The first step is to double up with earpro. Use disposable plugs and good muffs, especially if you are shooting indoors.
The next step is to dry fire. Dry fire at the range 5 times, load one live round, shoot it and repeat. Don't worry if you aren't getting a tight group during this. You are training to get rid of a flinch. Concentrate on getting a surprise trigger break. Don't crush through to make the shot go off RIGHT NOW. Let the pressure on the trigger increase until the gun goes off, SURPRISE!

In addition to dryfire, do the ball and dummy drill.
http://pistol-training.com/drills/ball-dummy-drill" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You don't need to have a partner load your mags, you can take 4 live rounds and 2 dummy rounds, shake them up in your hands and load the mag without looking at it.
You can mix your WWB and your Gold Dots and do the same thing.

Once you work out the flinch issue, then you can go back to stressing over your group size. If the flinch comes back, do some of these drills again.

I agree it sounds like he's flinching but I disagree that shooting rimfire causes flinching, otherwise dryfire would make it worse because there's even LESS noise and recoil than rimfire.

[MoJo]

give your wife $5 towards her shoe-fund for every flinch.

If I did that my wife would have more shoes than Imelda Marcos!

[rdcrags]

But she'd be making you go to the range - win/win

Now that's smart!

[speedsix]

...when I shoot low, I'm anticipating the recoil and leaning into it...when I shoot scattered, I'm jerking the trigger...I've taught and teach myself that if I know just when the boom's coming, I'm not pulling the trigger right...it should come as a surprise...slow steady pressure...I aim at 6 o'clock on the target every time...just the way I learned...when I'm doing things right...I hit where I want to...if I haven't shot much, I'm worse...if I shoot more often, I get better...I've told these things to a few who've never fired a handgun and had them do well first time with a .45 full-sized...that's all I know...you'll get there!!! With me, it's not the gun, not the ammo, it's the shooter who needs to change...I'm talking 12-oz can accuracy...not competition shooting...