Military Police

[DEB]

If you locked your gun and all ammo in the trunk, while on a federal facility, I'm assuming
that this would still not be good enough to avoid arrest. Comments?

SIA

Each installation has separate rules concerning weapons being brought on post/base. As general rule of thumb you cannot normally have a weapon at a military installation. I know that recently at Ft. Hood you could inform the (civilian) security force at the gate that you have a locked up and unloaded firearm if you are only going from one gate to the Gatesville gate or vice-versa--cutting through. This only pertained to those that had installation decals. Do not know if that policy is still in place. When I was a member of the Sportsman Club, you had to go to the Provost Marshal's Office with the S/N, make, and model of each weapon to get a document to bring it back to the PMO for inspection. Once this was complete they issued you another document that allowed you to take the weapon directly to the Sportsman Club and directly off post. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. You still had to declare and most times have the weapon inspected at the gate. Again, you could only go directly to the Sportsman Club and then directly off post. Some days it seemed like I spent more time unloading, locking up, getting inspected, and doing the reverse to leave, than I did shooting. I no longer go to the Sportsman Club.

When I pick my grandkids up, their mother meets me at the gate so I do not have to disarm. Since the terrorist attack at Ft. Hood I refuse to be unarmed if at all possible.

+1 to you Sir. Installations could, at one time, have less restrictive policies. Fort Hood prior to November 9, 2009, had very liberal policies for about two years. Now we have returned to full registration, transport only with permission and etc. Also, now with the new AR 190-11 the installations must meet those minimum standards which are: You cannot at any time carry a privately owned weapon, except those folding knives with blades shorter than 3 inches, unless authorized by the Senior Commander. And, only for those activites such as hunting, dog training activities, or marksmanship events. All firearms will be registered prior to bringing on post, registration must remain with the vehicle and in view while transporting, can only transport in the trunk of the vehicle or in another area that is not accessible to the driver or passengers. Can only transport in a direct route to and from. Commercially available trigger locks and other security devices are also recommended. (This will mean the Senior Commander will do more than recommend). Registration is not difficult, go to the VCC with the S/N, make/model of the weapon, don't bring the weapon, fill out the FH Form 190-19, give it back and the weapon is registered. Really just returned to the days before 2007, except that there is not really any grace period and if you are a soldier, commanders have to insure the weapons are stored safely in your on-post quarters. If someone would like an indepth PM me and I can give you a POC that can assist you concerning gate entry, hunting requirements and etc.

Stupid question.

Would these regulations prevent another Ft. Hood type shooting?

Just asking.

No. The shooter is a Field Grade Officer, Major. (I say "is", as he hasn't been found guilty and stripped of his rank yet). The military is a Hierarchy, officers especially those of Field Grade are given great leeway. This is just a knee jerk reaction to the shooting by the military to show the outside world, especially those who believe that gun registration prevents crime, that they, the military, is quick to respond to prevent another mass shooting. One can still register their weapons, carry on post as if going to the range and detour to another location. No one follows you to insure you arrive at the range. Again just knee jerk as, I feel, all gun carry retardation does. Gun free zones are free fire zones for mass shooters, registration only retards those who follow the law and etc. These regulations, again, are aimed at the enlisted ranks. Commanders, usually in the rank of Captain, can't tell someone of higher rank to follow the regulation, such as our Major. My take with over 30 years of Army service.

[papajohn1964]

Would these regulations prevent another Ft. Hood type shooting?

Just asking.

My favorite quote "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" Outlawed to me means places where you can't carry. Would the Ft Hood shooting have ended differantly if even one of those Soldiers had been armed? IMHO Probably!

[E.Marquez]

Would these regulations prevent another Ft. Hood type shooting?

Just asking.

In my opinion, No it would not. Who could it.. People intent on using a weapon for an illegitimate purpose are not deterred in the slightest by regulations policy s or consequences of braking those regs.. They are going to commit murder, armed robbery, rape...a little sign on the wall that says don't do that or else means nothing.
Even the increased searching that was done after the shooting was ineffective. I was "randomly" searched coming in the gate a dozen times within months after the shooting(Was deployed when It happened). On the back seat of my mustang was a pelican case, OPEN, with a box of Hornday Critical Defense ammo and a spare mag, plus a nice cut out in the foam from my not in place XD45 compact... I forgot, and left it there when i rearmed coming out of the airport.. That open box was there for weeks, and looked at every day by the gate guards as I came on post, once if not twice daily. Besides the daily looking in the car when i stop,, I was given an : enhanced search" several times, Sir we are conducting a quick search, please open all compartments" I did they saw nothing, I went on my way....My son cleaned the car for me two weeks later.. and asked if I was keeping my travel gun box in the back of the car for a reason
SO some empirical evidence that not only did the increased regulations not help but the increased inspections did not either.

[papajohn1964]

I am through with the second day of LE and Guard training at Ft Sam today. Meeting lots of LE and asking about this. Had a class yesterday and got a really unexpected response to this question from a Detective. Not ready to post on here the response but I will keep on asking and let you all know......

[Originalist]

OK,we have a real answer that i thought would be obvious. If you are stopped by anyone who is not a peace officer as defined in Texas Code of Criminal Procedure section 2.12, whether you are carrying or not, or by a Texas peace officer when you are not armed, you are not legally required to produce your CHL. You are not even required to produce it when they specifically ask you about it because you are not required to have it in your possession.

But for an opposing point of view, what is the advice we give about being unarmed and letting the Texas peace officer know anyway? Why would you change that attitude? The MP, or the federal agent off base, is going to run you through the exact same database that the peace officer will, with the exact same results. If the peace officer is going to want to know more, why would the other LEO not act the same way? I would recommend letting the MP know you have a CHL but are not armed. The rules for detaining you, cuffing you, and searching your car are only very slightly modified when you are on base if you are not in the military and subject to the UCMJ. The 4th Amendment still applies. There is the question of the implied consent sign when you come on base and it is my understanding that the court rulings on this are sort of mixed. I have not kept up with them since 2001 so I could be wrong on this, but that was my understanding the last time I worked near a base.

My recommendation would be to treat the MP, FBI agent, US Marshal, or Border Patrol Agent as exactly the same as you would a peace officer.

But do not forget that you are not allowed to haev the gun on base in most cases, even in the trunk. That part is still way different from the rest of Texas.

I don't think the MP or Federal Agent has access to TCIC, do they? I thought that was limited to Texas peace officers.

When you're on a military installation, the best advice is, "Don't poke the bear with a stick." Telling the MP or USAF SP you have a CHL will make them suspicious that you are carrying and cause a hassle for you.

Yes we have access to TLETS (TCIC/NCIC), we use and are bound by the same rules established by Austin/FBI. Its an inspection policy, not a search. For the inspection to be valid it has to be random and normally there is no PC/RAS. If there is no randomness and I suspect you of a crime I must have consent or search authorization (USAF equivalent to a search warrant) or an exemption recognized in law (i.e. exigent circumstances).

I am an USAF SP and I do not hassle people for things I do not have PC/RAS for. If I find out you have a CHL, I might ask you if you are carrying but that is the same thing any other LEO will do in Texas. Having a CHL is not PC/RAS to believe a crime is being committed (i.e. loaded gun on base) therefore there would be no legal basis outside the scope of the traffic stop given a very limited scenario.

I personally find your comment slightly offensive and speculative. It might make them yes, but to make it sound diffinitive is mean.

[Pawpaw]

I personally find your comment slightly offensive and speculative. It might make them yes, but to make it sound diffinitive is mean.

I'm sorry if my recommendation offended you. I spent 22 years on active duty in the Air Force.

In that time, I saw (just like all walks of life) quite a few VERY professional SP's and some jerks who were just looking for an excuse to jack someone up. Since one does not initially know which kind he is dealing with, it is wise to be cautious.

[speedsix]

...they's good 'uns and they's bad 'uns...everywhere you go...as to showing my CHL, since I would NOT be carrying arms or ammo onto any military base without prior permission, I wouldn't...military police officers aren't peace officers, and have no authority OVER CIVILIANS in Texas EXCEPT on military property...so why clog their intakes??? if the encounter progressed to where either they found on computer or by searching (inspecting) my wallet and brought up my CHL...I'd tell them I also had a library card in my wallet...but that didn't mean I had books with me...it just ain't that big a deal...

[Originalist]

I personally find your comment slightly offensive and speculative. It might make them yes, but to make it sound diffinitive is mean.

I'm sorry if my recommendation offended you. I spent 22 years on active duty in the Air Force.

In that time, I saw (just like all walks of life) quite a few VERY professional SP's and some jerks who were just looking for an excuse to jack someone up. Since one does not initially know which kind he is dealing with, it is wise to be cautious.

It has been my experience, just like in civilian life, those who carry that chip on their shoulder do so becuase they actually lack the informed knowledge to do their job. While we are not recognized as "peace officer's" - something I hope to discus with Rep Garza between sessions - we do interact with civilians everyday in a LE capacity and enforce Texas Laws on them when they are prosecuted in federal court. Those hard noses most likely wouldn't be able to intelligently explain elements of an offense let alone know what they are.

Now my reasoning for wanting Texas to recognize us as Peace Officer's (even in a limited capacity) is for when people run from us, assault us, etc.

[johnson0317]

I grew up as an Air Force brat. My most recent experiences come from the MPs at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. I lived in the Springs for 28 years and graduated from the Air Force Academy High School. One thing that was passed along, as general knowledge, was that you did not mess around with the military police because they would rain on your parade, but if you were respectful of them, they would respect you in return. In 28 years, I never once heard a complaint about these fellows. I never had any run in with them, but one of my older sisters got caught, on the Academy,doing some underage drinking. My next older sister went, posing as my mother, and picked her up from the MP station. I have no doubt they knew that Pat was not the mother, but they let her get the younger sister, and take her home. They could have been so, so, so much worse. We still laugh about that, and it happened about 40 years ago.

RJ

[Soldiernurse]

How did you legally get onto the base with your CHL? I thought most military bases are off-limits to CHL.

I'm pretty sure you can have a CHL and be on a military base. You just can't actually carry.

Don't mean to be rude but this is a very strange thread with interesting comments, to say the least.

First, no matter if civilian or military you cannot bring a firearm on to a military installation. However, holding a CHL without actual firearm in possession does not prevent entry on to a military installation. Most often, a sign is posted near the military gate that privately owned weapons are not allowed.

[johnson0317]

Interesting comments, always. Rude? Only if that is your intent. I think TAM simply assumed that the CHL carrier would be carrying. I think this is because TAM, like myself, believes in carrying at all times, and does not understand why people do not do so if able. We also understand that there are places you do not carry...so I think he was trying to clarify. Of course, I could be full of beans...that man is not annoyed for no reason at all.

[Purplehood]

If you locked your gun and all ammo in the trunk, while on a federal facility, I'm assuming
that this would still not be good enough to avoid arrest. Comments?

SIA

Each installation has separate rules concerning weapons being brought on post/base. As general rule of thumb you cannot normally have a weapon at a military installation. I know that recently at Ft. Hood you could inform the (civilian) security force at the gate that you have a locked up and unloaded firearm if you are only going from one gate to the Gatesville gate or vice-versa--cutting through. This only pertained to those that had installation decals. Do not know if that policy is still in place. When I was a member of the Sportsman Club, you had to go to the Provost Marshal's Office with the S/N, make, and model of each weapon to get a document to bring it back to the PMO for inspection. Once this was complete they issued you another document that allowed you to take the weapon directly to the Sportsman Club and directly off post. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. You still had to declare and most times have the weapon inspected at the gate. Again, you could only go directly to the Sportsman Club and then directly off post. Some days it seemed like I spent more time unloading, locking up, getting inspected, and doing the reverse to leave, than I did shooting. I no longer go to the Sportsman Club.

When I pick my grandkids up, their mother meets me at the gate so I do not have to disarm. Since the terrorist attack at Ft. Hood I refuse to be unarmed if at all possible.

What he said.

[Purplehood]

No. The shooter is a Field Grade Officer, Major. (I say "is", as he hasn't been found guilty and stripped of his rank yet). The military is a Hierarchy, officers especially those of Field Grade are given great leeway. This is just a knee jerk reaction to the shooting by the military to show the outside world, especially those who believe that gun registration prevents crime, that they, the military, is quick to respond to prevent another mass shooting. One can still register their weapons, carry on post as if going to the range and detour to another location. No one follows you to insure you arrive at the range. Again just knee jerk as, I feel, all gun carry retardation does. Gun free zones are free fire zones for mass shooters, registration only retards those who follow the law and etc. These regulations, again, are aimed at the enlisted ranks. Commanders, usually in the rank of Captain, can't tell someone of higher rank to follow the regulation, such as our Major. My take with over 30 years of Army service.

I admit to not having 30 years of service, but I would dispute that you cannot tell someone of higher rank to follow any particular regulation. You can and are expected to. However, discretion is also highly valued in the Armed Forces.

[DEB]

No. The shooter is a Field Grade Officer, Major. (I say "is", as he hasn't been found guilty and stripped of his rank yet). The military is a Hierarchy, officers especially those of Field Grade are given great leeway. This is just a knee jerk reaction to the shooting by the military to show the outside world, especially those who believe that gun registration prevents crime, that they, the military, is quick to respond to prevent another mass shooting. One can still register their weapons, carry on post as if going to the range and detour to another location. No one follows you to insure you arrive at the range. Again just knee jerk as, I feel, all gun carry retardation does. Gun free zones are free fire zones for mass shooters, registration only retards those who follow the law and etc. These regulations, again, are aimed at the enlisted ranks. Commanders, usually in the rank of Captain, can't tell someone of higher rank to follow the regulation, such as our Major. My take with over 30 years of Army service.

I admit to not having 30 years of service, but I would dispute that you cannot tell someone of higher rank to follow any particular regulation. You can and are expected to. However, discretion is also highly valued in the Armed Forces.

You are right, one should follow regulation no matter one's rank. I was perhaps a bit over dramatic. What I was wanting to convey was, that here on Fort Hood if you are in the rank of SFC and above you self register. FH Reg 190-11 states that Soldiers in the rank of Staff Sergeant and below are required to obtain approval from the unit commander. That Newly assigned Soldiers (SSG and below) in possession of assignment orders may receive a temporary weapons registration (not to exceed 5 working days) pending Commander’s approval. Soldiers (SSG and below) that purchase a firearm (on weekends and
holidays) may receive a temporary weapons registration (not to exceed 3 working days) pending Commander’s approval. So as you can see/read what through registration would have prevented a Field Grade Officer from not registering his weapons? There are no checks. Also getting away from weapons, a junior grade soldier cannot tell a senior grade individual to adhere to regulation, or maybe to refrase this, the senior leader does not have to take the suggestion from the junior grade, unless it is considered an illegal order, such as the killing of prisoners, theft of some properties, disobeying ROE and etc. A private can tell a senior grade that he/she must adhere to a certain regulation, but if they do not, the private can't do anything to that individual to force compliance. (I am not talking about Military L.E.) While on the other hand, if the senior grade individual, especially a field grade, tells a private they must comply with regulation and the private does not, that private can be prosecuted for disobeying a lawful order. If a Captain tells a Major to register his/her weapons, that Major can tell that Captain to bump off. The Major perhaps can be prosecuted for not registering by the Senior Commander, but nothing will occur to him/her, through the UCMJ, for telling the Captain no. In the Military, respect only goes up, IAW the UCMJ. There are several other nuances, i.e. cannot curse a subordinate and etc, but that is the nature of the Military. Majors can order Captains, Captains cannot order Majors. This explanation is also not fully taking in consideration of all nuances, i.e. the Major can be under arrest, the Captain can be placed in charge of the Major through UCMJ procedings and etc. But for the normal day to day activities of the Military this is the case. As a junior grade soldier you better have your act fully together before you castigate a senior grade to comply with a particular regulation.

[Soldiernurse]

Nope, my intentions were not to be rude.