CHL Instructor Arrested for Selling CHL-100's

[Charles L. Cotton]

My apologies....I didn't know that loadedliberal and Bulldog1911 were the same person.....

The Moderators have had more than enough of your attitude. Crossfire posted a gentile warning and you even had to argue with that. Knock it off now or you're gone. If you can't discuss issues without being insulting and condescending, then go talk to the mirror so you'll have an audience that appreciates your approach.

Chas.

[Bulldog1911]

I'm waiting for Bulldog1911 to answer my first three questions

The reason I didn't answer them is because I believe they have been adequately answered in several other posts. But, since you are, for some reason, wanting more answers(I assume because the answers previously given contradicted your beliefs), I will oblige:

1. Who was victimized by the commission of this crime?

The "students" who did not receive the proper training that they 1) Paid for, and 2) are required to have by law.

2. Why should taxpayer money be spent to prosecute this crime to the fullest?

Would you want to expend state resources and taxpayer money to prosecute and imprison someone who did the same thing with Defensive Driving courses?.....or would you just make sure that instructor was never certified to teach Defensive Driving in Texas again?......

a. I fully support my tax dollars being used to convict criminals. I could give you a loooooong list of things that my tax dollars have been wasted on. Fighting crime is not something that would make that list.
b. I'd be ok with either option.

3. Does the fact that some CHL holders did not attend the class yet have CHL's make the world a more dangerous place?

Quite possibly. I would compare this to those(some of my family members included ) that have taken the Utah, or Florida "way out" of getting their carry permit's. I know for a fact that some of these people had never shot a gun before in their lives, but yet they have been given permission to carry, and are also unaware of any Texas laws regarding concealed carry.

So, to sum it all up, prosecute this guy for the crime he committed!

[seeker_two]

Bulldog1911:

1. Thank you for your responses. Now that I understand your postion, I can better discuss this with you.

2. I'm not saying that this "instructor" shouldn't face any consequences for his actions. In fact, I wouldn't mind this guy being permanently banned from being a CHL instructor, a TSRA-certified instructor, and a NRA-certified instructor. What I don't want to do is to spend taxpayer-funded state resources (investigators, prosecutors, judges, prisons, etc.) to punish this person. Our state is in a budget crisis, and we have more important issues to expend state resources upon than this. The fact that this law goes against the idea of Constitutional Carry is a reinforcement of my position....like the the need for a well-regulated militia reinforces the postion of RKBA.....

3. I still don't see any proof that not taking a Texas CHL course makes anyone more dangerous than those who don't take the course. You cited Utah and Florida CCW, yet their programs don't seem to result in dangerous activity. This argument sounds a lot like the "blood in the streets" argument that the CHL opponents used with Ann Richards...and yet none of it came to pass. Have any of the people you know that have UT or FL CHL's been invovled in an unjustified shooting?

Again, thank you for your answers.

[seeker_two]

PracticalTactical:

1. I am not a troll. And I'm not an "anarcho-capitalist"....and I'm not even sure what that means. If anything, I'm quite conservative, both fiscally and socially. And I don't see the logic in a budget-constrained state expending resources to prosecute a crime that has little if any ramifications against society and no clearly-defined victims. Let DPS, TSRA, and the NRA shut this "instructor" out of the instructing business....but don't waste money Texas doesn't have to try, convict, and imprison this guy on our dime.

2. I don't really care why this person sold the CHL-100's. He might think the CHL instruction process is contrary to the intent of the Second Amendment....he might be looking for a quick buck....he might think the people he sold them to are bright enough to know Texas self-defense law.....it doesn't really matter. My position listed in #1 still stands. And, if you look at the process closely, all instructors "sell" CHL-100's.....the difference being that the ones who do so legally charge a monetary fee PLUS eight hours of time....and I don't think many instructors are doing so on a non-profit basis.

[Bulldog1911]

all instructors "sell" CHL-100's

No they don't. They sell a service which includes 10 or more hours of class time and a range qualification test. The student, upon completion of these two prior's is given the CHL-100 form.

[seeker_two]

all instructors "sell" CHL-100's

No they don't. They sell a service which includes 10 or more hours of class time and a range qualification test. The student, upon completion of these two prior's is given the CHL-100 form.

1. Isn't that like saying that a gas station doesn't sell gas.....it just sells the service of pumping gasoline from an underground tank to your vehicle?

2. How many people take the CHL course(and successfully complete it) without receiving a CHL-100 at the end of the course?

[sjfcontrol]

all instructors "sell" CHL-100's

No they don't. They sell a service which includes 10 or more hours of class time and a range qualification test. The student, upon completion of these two prior's is given the CHL-100 form.

1. Isn't that like saying that a gas station doesn't sell gas.....it just sells the service of pumping gasoline from an underground tank to your vehicle?

2. How many people take the CHL course(and successfully complete it) without receiving a CHL-100 at the end of the course?

No, the comparison would be how many people DO get the CHL-100 after FAILING the course, because they've "paid" for it already.

[seeker_two]

No, the comparison would be how many people DO get the CHL-100 after FAILING the course, because they've "paid" for it already.

Actually, that IS a good question.....

....and I'd also add the question: How many of those people were involved in unjustified shootings?.....

....as well as: How many CHL holders in UT and FL, where Texas-style training is NOT required, are involved in unjustified shootings?.....

Thanks, sjfcontrol......

[Bulldog1911]

1. Isn't that like saying that a gas station doesn't sell gas.....it just sells the service of pumping gasoline from an underground tank to your vehicle?

No, not at all. With gas, you are buying a product. And there is a very Real difference. I won't go into detail on this thread b/c that would be way off topic, but if you'd like to start a new thread and discuss that, we can

[seeker_two]

No, not at all. With gas, you are buying a product. And there is a very Real difference. I won't go into detail on this thread b/c that would be way off topic, but if you'd like to start a new thread and discuss that, we can

I agree....we have gotten way off the original topic....so I think I'll just sum up my position like this....

...if the TSRA, NRA, TexasCHLforum.com, individual CHL instructors, and any other private, non-taxpayer-funded party want to see this "instructor" prosecuted and imprisoned for this particular crime, that's fine by me.....as long as these private, non-taxpayer-funded parties are willing to fund the ENTIRE cost of the trial, sentencing, and imprisonment/parole/probation....including the salaries of all those involved (prosecutor, judge, bailiffs, court reporter, etc.) and the costs incurred from the defendant's attorney (if he cannot afford his own)......and that ABSOLUTELY NO TAXPAYER MONEY will be used in this case.....

....otherwise, the deal's off......

Thank y'all for your time and discussion......

[jimandyen]

What about the other crimes in the same fraud category. Then we have to treat them the same way...?
Maybe some examples like selling fake ID's, fake inspection stickers, fake CHL-100's. They all have to be
treated the same. The laws would get even more complicated if we had to decide what money goes to pay for
what crime...

[seeker_two]

jimandyen: Good questions.

Answer: LEO's, prosecutors and judges decide daily on what crimes get prosecuted to the fullest and which ones are not prosecuted at all. And you wouldn't want a world where every crime is prosecuted the same and sentenced to the max. Do you want to see every 18-y.o. boy caught bedding his 17-y.o. girlfriend sent to prison for statuatory rape? Do you want to see a teenager sent to juvenile detention for 90 days for their first shoplifting offense? Do you want the LEO who pulls you over for speeding to not have the option to give you a warning instead of a ticket? Laws are complicated already.....that's why we have human beings as judges to decide what is appropriate. If you want everyone prosecuted and sentenced the same, then why do you need judges and juries? Just take the perp from the cruiser straight to Huntsville and check the book for what the mandatory sentence is.....

My opinion: Don't waste my tax money on this one.....let it be handled by the parties offended in civil proceedings.....

[sjfcontrol]

I don't understand. Are you, or are you not -- in favor of some kind of poll, where everybody votes with there money, which laws get prosecuted and which get ignored?

[PracticalTactical]

I think we're getting horribly off topic.

Does anybody have any links to news stories or anything about this?

[jimandyen]

Answer: LEO's, prosecutors and judges decide daily on what crimes get prosecuted to the fullest and which ones are not prosecuted at all. And you wouldn't want a world where every crime is prosecuted the same and sentenced to the max. Do you want to see every 18-y.o. boy caught bedding his 17-y.o. girlfriend sent to prison for statuatory rape? Do you want to see a teenager sent to juvenile detention for 90 days for their first shoplifting offense? Do you want the LEO who pulls you over for speeding to not have the option to give you a warning instead of a ticket? Laws are complicated already.....that's why we have human beings as judges to decide what is appropriate. If you want everyone prosecuted and sentenced the same, then why do you need judges and juries? Just take the perp from the cruiser straight to Huntsville and check the book for what the mandatory sentence is.....

I'm not saying to prosecute everyone to the fullest the same way no matter what. I'm saying that everyone go through the justice system the same way
and be judged by their peers based on their record. Sorry you misunderstood me.

The CHL instructor committed a Federal crime. Just put him through the justice system the same way everyone else would be.
Maybe he'll only pay a fine or something more based on his record.
Then he might have to go to civil court also.

What's the penalty for what he did?
What would you like to see happen to him?