Video: Guy shoot himself on leg while drawing from holster

[fm2]

I have been very interested in the reported disparity in ND rates between military users in combat environments and events that occur in training here in the states. I don't have any hard data on this, but I suspect the almost problem free use of the holster in the combat environment is that rapid draw of a pistol is relatively rare in military combat.

I too think the context & dynamics between military and chl carry is much different.

I recently heard that the Marines were going to a Safariland ALS holster as a replacement on the next cycle. The change was attributed to the problem that Andy noted, gun locked into holster due to debris. But, that problem was documented when those holsters were new on the market. I think the Safariland ALS is a MUCH better choice if you want a retention holster.

In most cases the handgun is carried as a secondary weapon and rarely drawn suddenly in action as long as the primary long gun is working. More often it is drawn purposefully and not in a hurry in preparation for a CQB situation where the long gun isn't a good choice. This usage pattern involves different time frames and consciousness dynamics. It circumstantially virtually eliminates the unintended and unnoticed actions that crop up when the same equipment is used in a rapid draw and quick engagement environment where things other than the draw stroke are going on (e.g. moving targets or a requirement to engage targets in a particular sequence) and further diverting the user's attention as he attempts to execute something the hasn't fully learned at speed.

In force on force evolutions, I've seen people fire training rounds into the deck, etc.. when they are asked to multi-task in a dynamic environment.

[Excaliber]

I have been very interested in the reported disparity in ND rates between military users in combat environments and events that occur in training here in the states. I don't have any hard data on this, but I suspect the almost problem free use of the holster in the combat environment is that rapid draw of a pistol is relatively rare in military combat.

I too think the context & dynamics between military and chl carry is much different.

I recently heard that the Marines were going to a Safariland ALS holster as a replacement on the next cycle. The change was attributed to the problem that Andy noted, gun locked into holster due to debris. But, that problem was documented when those holsters were new on the market. I think the Safariland ALS is a MUCH better choice if you want a retention holster.

In most cases the handgun is carried as a secondary weapon and rarely drawn suddenly in action as long as the primary long gun is working. More often it is drawn purposefully and not in a hurry in preparation for a CQB situation where the long gun isn't a good choice. This usage pattern involves different time frames and consciousness dynamics. It circumstantially virtually eliminates the unintended and unnoticed actions that crop up when the same equipment is used in a rapid draw and quick engagement environment where things other than the draw stroke are going on (e.g. moving targets or a requirement to engage targets in a particular sequence) and further diverting the user's attention as he attempts to execute something the hasn't fully learned at speed.

In force on force evolutions, I've seen people fire training rounds into the deck, etc.. when they are asked to multi-task in a dynamic environment.

I'm not at all surprised.

Different things happen when folks try to force themselves to perform a task much faster under stressful conditions, particularly when that task has to be performed in response to a randomly timed stimulus which may come as a total surprise.

[Heartland Patriot]

This is a typical accident error chain.

He mentioned that the holster he was using prior had a release that is located in the same location as the 1911 safety, so in his inattention to the type of equipment he was using and switching to a different holster and gun within a short time, he errantly released the 1911 safety in holster (error chain link 1 (changing equipment quickly) and error chain link 2 (inattention to the new safety location)

Next when releasing the catch on the Serpa, he failed to keep the finger parallel to the firearm as he drew it out of the holster and allowed the finger to curl into the trigger guard. (error chain link 3)

Lastly, I am going to guess his 1911 has a very light trigger. I have seen many 1911's with the triggers adjusted so light and with such a short pull that they go off when you breath on them. This may be great for target shooting from a ready or low ready position, but it's a major ND waiting to happen if drawing from the holster. There needs to be some resistance to your trigger finger when you are fast drawing so you KNOW your pressing the trigger to fire. (error chain link 4 and completed chain)

So, bottom line, I appreciate the guy posting this as it is very educational, but in his own words, it was his fault due to negligence over several areas. Had he even broken the chain at one of these areas, the accident would not have happened.

We learned this same sort of analysis in the USAF...chain of events leading to accident...remove one link, the chain is broken, no accident. And we were taught to look at a process to try and prevent accidents by looking for this sort of thing. I'm not saying absolutely everything can be done that way, but in a event that involves a process such as you describe, I think you are spot on.

[fm2]

I would like to see the video from when he was working with his Glock earlier in the day. I would be willing to bet that he had been getting away with pre staging the trigger prior to leveling the weapon. When he switched to the Kimber which has considerably less travel in the trigger and likely a lighter pull, his bad habit of pre staging early finally bit him. While the change in release mechanism from switching holsters was a possible contributing factor, I would venture to say that the main failure was an inherantly bad habit of putting his finger inside the trigger guard before the weapon was pointing at his intended target............but not because of the serpa release.

and I have some experience with this (thankfully not with a double-ended bullet wound in my leg) ...

I had an ND at a range once while doing some shooting drills from low-ready. Had done a few strings with my Glock, then buddy offered to let me try same string of fire with his Kimber ... BANG! ... bullet into the dirt a few inches in front of the shooting bench

And THAT is how I discovered that I was staging my Glock trigger at the range. Thankfully I was following the other 3 rules.

That's why I recommend people pick a particular action (single action, double action, striker fired, etc..) and be consistant with it for a chl.

[Excaliber]

This is a typical accident error chain.

He mentioned that the holster he was using prior had a release that is located in the same location as the 1911 safety, so in his inattention to the type of equipment he was using and switching to a different holster and gun within a short time, he errantly released the 1911 safety in holster (error chain link 1 (changing equipment quickly) and error chain link 2 (inattention to the new safety location)

Next when releasing the catch on the Serpa, he failed to keep the finger parallel to the firearm as he drew it out of the holster and allowed the finger to curl into the trigger guard. (error chain link 3)

Lastly, I am going to guess his 1911 has a very light trigger. I have seen many 1911's with the triggers adjusted so light and with such a short pull that they go off when you breath on them. This may be great for target shooting from a ready or low ready position, but it's a major ND waiting to happen if drawing from the holster. There needs to be some resistance to your trigger finger when you are fast drawing so you KNOW your pressing the trigger to fire. (error chain link 4 and completed chain)

So, bottom line, I appreciate the guy posting this as it is very educational, but in his own words, it was his fault due to negligence over several areas. Had he even broken the chain at one of these areas, the accident would not have happened.

We learned this same sort of analysis in the USAF...chain of events leading to accident...remove one link, the chain is broken, no accident. And we were taught to look at a process to try and prevent accidents by looking for this sort of thing. I'm not saying absolutely everything can be done that way, but in a event that involves a process such as you describe, I think you are spot on.

I agree, with the further refinement that one should strive to remove as many potential failure points from the chain as possible so that if a single failure does occur, it doesn't produce a disaster.

This is the concept behind the 4 Rules.

[Excaliber]

I would like to see the video from when he was working with his Glock earlier in the day. I would be willing to bet that he had been getting away with pre staging the trigger prior to leveling the weapon. When he switched to the Kimber which has considerably less travel in the trigger and likely a lighter pull, his bad habit of pre staging early finally bit him. While the change in release mechanism from switching holsters was a possible contributing factor, I would venture to say that the main failure was an inherantly bad habit of putting his finger inside the trigger guard before the weapon was pointing at his intended target............but not because of the serpa release.

and I have some experience with this (thankfully not with a double-ended bullet wound in my leg) ...

I had an ND at a range once while doing some shooting drills from low-ready. Had done a few strings with my Glock, then buddy offered to let me try same string of fire with his Kimber ... BANG! ... bullet into the dirt a few inches in front of the shooting bench

And THAT is how I discovered that I was staging my Glock trigger at the range. Thankfully I was following the other 3 rules.

That's why I recommend people pick a particular action (single action, double action, striker fired, etc..) and be consistant with it for a chl.

That is excellent advice.

If you do eventually decide to use more than one type of action, it is best to select types that are complementary and not contradictory, and practice most extensively with the most complex type.

I know that's confusing, so here's what it means in practice:

If I decide to carry a 1911 and later decide I have situations where a polymer frame pistol would serve better (e.g. in a wet environment), I would choose a Glock, XD, or S&W M&P and practice most heavily with the 1911. The reason is that the precise grip needed to depress the grip safety and the motion to wipe off the thumb safety as the gun comes on target will not cause any issues with a gun that doesn't have those features. My training is consistent and I won't have any significant adaptations I would have to remember in a moment when I've got too much to think about already.

I would not choose an S&W 5906 and carry it with the decock lever in the safe position because that would require me to wipe the lever UP instead of down as on the 1911. I would be creating a highly likely failure point if I did.

I also would not pick a gun that has the European style magazine release at the heel of the grip or holster systems that require different complex motions (e.g. a Level II Serpa and a Safariland 6380) for the same reasons.

[Bulldog1911]

I would choose a Glock, XD, or S&W M&P and practice most heavily with the 1911.

You can even get an M&P with a thumb saftey so that you have the same motion as the 1911

[Excaliber]

I would choose a Glock, XD, or S&W M&P and practice most heavily with the 1911.

You can even get an M&P with a thumb saftey so that you have the same motion as the 1911

Some of the XD's are available with a safety as well, but it works the same way as the 1911's.

Whether the safety is present or not, the downward motion used in wiping off the safety will do no harm.

[LSUTiger]

2. Conscious incompetence = You've tried it and are now aware that you suck.

This is why I dont carry with one in the pipe, afraid to shoot myself or worse someone not intended to be shot. This is not what the tactical elite would do and chastize and berate and belitte those who don't carry with one in the pipe for. Sometimes you just have to say h e double hockey sticks with what the tactical elite say. i will carry within the confines of my skill/practice level and what i feel comfortable with.

Can you say Plaxico Burris? or Video: Guy shoot himself on leg while drawing from holster?

[Dave2]

Some of the comments on that video suggest that he's going to be on Tosh.0. I keep switching between and ... (at the thought of him being on that show, not at the ND)

[muleman]

What a TOOL!!!

[Liberty]

2. Conscious incompetence = You've tried it and are now aware that you suck.

This is why I dont carry with one in the pipe, afraid to shoot myself or worse someone not intended to be shot.

Have you concidered finding something that you would be more comfortable carrying? Perhaps something with a safety, and or a hammer? DA/SA Perhaps a diffetent holster. There are a lot of guns and methods of carry that are safe for lots of folks that just wouldn't feel safe to me.

[LSUTiger]

Currently I carry a Springfield XD 45 with a CompTAC MTAC IWB holster , it has the positive grip safety, trigger safety (if there really is such a thing) but no slide safety. It has been the most comfortable and concealable option in a .45 I have found (that has a minimum .45acp 10 round capacity).

I used to carry a full size 1911 (paraordnance P14 High Cap) in shoulder holster but found the size limiting my conceal carry options in warmer weather. Even thin jackets are hot in 100 degree + weather, also look very suspicious. I tried 1911 in IWB but was just to large and uncomfortable to me. I did carry the 1911 with hammer cocked, one in the pipe and slide safety on. I felt good about it, slide safety would protect from any accidental contact with trigger. Not to shabby with using thumb safety.

I also carry a Glock 19 occasionally. The Springfield XD and Glock type guns with offer no real safety in my opinion. Any accidental moderate contact with trigger with fire the weapon as my limited(unloaded gun) drawing from concealment practice has proven. Trigger safeties are not safe at all.

They are fine guns but any real safeties are lacking.

A compact 1911 is probably best for me but the smaller grip and lower capacity always keeps me away from them.

With concealed carry, it's alway about what tradeoffs are you willing to make?

For me a .45acp with 10 round minimum is my minimum, this usually makes the grips long enough for my big hands and any less capacity I should carry a revolver for total simplicity (but no safety). The glock 19 for it size firepower and concealability is a good option but it is a 9mm, not my favorite.

As for as the added speed of having one in the pipe vs having to rack the slide before firing, this risk of AD is not worth it for me. I need to practice more drawing from concealment. I am much more comfortable drawing from open carry with a loaded gun, but thats not an option at the moment.

Any suggestions on gun/holster/concealment and drawing techniques welcome.