Looking for a New Church

[rtschl]

Retrieverman,

Definitely pray about it! And I agree with Hoi, talk to the pastor. It is important that he hears from you about this. Let him know you're not wanting to be Batman or a LEO wannabe. He's going to be sensitive to Wedgewood, so I would probably avoid discussing Wedgewood altogether - like pointing out that had CHL carry in church been legal at the time, there may have been fewer casualties.

We have more than a few LEO's at our church with various agencies. One however was opposed to our security team that we have set up. We are licensed by the State and are concealed as Level IV. He actively made it known that it would be better for the church to hire him. I like the guy, but I got the impression that his motivation is that he wants a paycheck for attending church in uniform. Nothing wrong with that and I know if something happens, we can count on him if he is there. But like your LEO's, ours are not at every service either. I would venture a guess that they make about a fourth of our services each month. Our team (or part thereof) is at EVERY service and we try to have someone at special church events as well.

I would mention to your pastor that you have discussed with others (here on this forum) who have non-LEO security teams in place at their churches as well as those that do not, but allow CHL carry. It works well and our church is safer with all of us: our LEO's, our security team, and our CHL members. Our security team and all of our LEO's still can't be everywhere. Personally, I would not like to be responsible for someone not being able to protect themselves or their family from a bad guy because I or a member of my team was not in the exact spot to do it for them. Most of our LEO's feel the same way.

The various church safety seminars (LEO run seminars included) and other church security people that I have met over the last couple of years would all agree with the above. Unless your church can afford to pay multiple LEO's to attend every service (be early and leave late), it really isn't a reasonable for LEO's or even a security team to be the only ones to carry at a church.

Hope it works out for you and that you don't end up leaving over this.

Ron

[Greybeard]

Quote: "avoid discussing Wedgewood altogether - like pointing out that had CHL carry in church been legal at the time, there may have been fewer casualties."

FWIW, it was legal at the time, as churches (excepting notice via 30.06) came off the prohibited list Sept. 1, 1997, considerably prior to the shooting at Wedgewood.

[The Annoyed Man]

A friend of mine is on staff at Wedgewood, and he has no problem with CHL in the pews.

[rtschl]

Quote: "avoid discussing Wedgewood altogether - like pointing out that had CHL carry in church been legal at the time, there may have been fewer casualties."

FWIW, it was legal at the time, as churches (excepting notice via 30.06) came off the prohibited list Sept. 1, 1997, considerably prior to the shooting at Wedgewood.

My bad. I thought the Wedgewood shooting happened just before the law was changed. Thank you for the correction.

Ron

[Oldgringo]

Quote: "avoid discussing Wedgewood altogether - like pointing out that had CHL carry in church been legal at the time, there may have been fewer casualties."

FWIW, it was legal at the time, as churches (excepting notice via 30.06) came off the prohibited list Sept. 1, 1997, considerably prior to the shooting at Wedgewood.

My bad. I thought the Wedgewood shooting happened just before the law was changed. Thank you for the correction.

Ron

Does it really make any difference when it happened?

[parkerrev]

I'm a minister and also very familiar with the Wedgwood shooting. I think Hoi Polloi gave you some great advise. That's what I would recommend.

I also think that Venus Pax made a good point about control. That pretty well sums it up.

[jmra]

Quote: "avoid discussing Wedgewood altogether - like pointing out that had CHL carry in church been legal at the time, there may have been fewer casualties."

FWIW, it was legal at the time, as churches (excepting notice via 30.06) came off the prohibited list Sept. 1, 1997, considerably prior to the shooting at Wedgewood.

Good point, however, I would speculate that at the time of the Wedgewood shooting the number of CHL's in attendance was a fraction of what it is today if there were any present at all. I would also speculate,given the number of people who still believe church carry is prohibited, that most if not all of the CHL's present were under the impression at the time that church carry was prohibited and were more than likely unarmed.

[flintknapper]

I have been a member of the same church since the late 70's and am very happy there, but there is a member who is trying to organize a "LE only" security team. His intention is to prohibit CHL holders from carrying on church property, and unfortunately, he has at least some support from our pastor who was at Wedgewood in Ft Worth when the shooting occurred there. The problem with this plan is that, of the 5 or 6 LEO's in our church, none are regular attenders, and there are some times that there are NONE there (including the organizer).

I serve in several capacities and, as I said before, am very happy at this church, but I won't stay there if I can't carry. This may sound like a silly reason to change churches, but for me, this is an infringement that I am not willing to put up with.

Thoughts?

Not sure how things work at your church, but the Members and Church Board DECIDE how things work at my church NOT the pastor. What you describe (if implemented) would definitely be a deal breaker (in terms of attendance) for me.

You don't mention the Church (which is good)...but I think I know which one. If things don't work out for you....there are other churches in "Nac" that gladly allow CHL's. Pray about it.

Flint.

[AJ80]

I go to church in Nac. My pastor was the one who actually put the idea I'm my head of getting a handgun and a CHL in the first place. It's a small church, but there is always someone armed there.

[retrieverman]

Flintknapper and AJ80

I am fairly confident where I will go if this situation goes south. My brother left our church a couple of years ago, and the pastor at his current church not only welcomes but encourages carrying.

I guess where I am at on this whole deal is that, IF the "LEO elite" form their security team and don't make a big deal about CHL holders, I am going to keep my mouth shut and stay where I am, but if ANYTHING comes up about no one carrying but "security", I will be turning north out of my driveway instead of south.

Since the preacher wants me to take him hog hunting, that will be an opportunity to feel him out on the current situation.

[Photoman]

Many cops don't agree with "civilians" carrying guns. No surprise there. Just talk to your pastor about the subject, pray and go from there. Also note, many agencies don't want the liability of church security and don't want officers being on the security team. Another issue, if you hire off duty for your security, most officers are bound by the department to act in the interest of the department first and the church second. In other words, there are a LOT of legal issues involved when using police officers on the church security team and your pastor will want to research that subject.

FYI, My opinion... Not being able to carry at church is a deal breaker for me.

[SewTexas]

I think the hog hunting trip will be a good time to talk about CHL's in general....maybe don't mention the specific situation....see if he brings it up. If he does then get into it, see if you can make him see your/our side of the scriptural argument. I think if my pastor and I had such a scriptural difference, we'd be gone...basically because my whole family believes as I do.

[Oldgringo]

I think the hog hunting trip will be a good time to talk about CHL's in general....maybe don't mention the specific situation....see if he brings it up. If he does then get into it, see if you can make him see your/our side of the scriptural argument. I think if my pastor and I had such a scriptural difference, we'd be gone...basically because my whole family believes as I do.

Why 'beat around the bush'? Get to the point, resolve the question before it becomes an issue and get on with your life...just sayin'.

[gigag04]

Flintknapper and AJ80

I am fairly confident where I will go if this situation goes south. My brother left our church a couple of years ago, and the pastor at his current church not only welcomes but encourages carrying.

I guess where I am at on this whole deal is that, IF the "LEO elite" form their security team and don't make a big deal about CHL holders, I am going to keep my mouth shut and stay where I am, but if ANYTHING comes up about no one carrying but "security", I will be turning north out of my driveway instead of south.

Since the preacher wants me to take him hog hunting, that will be an opportunity to feel him out on the current situation.

Take him, but don't let him bring a gun. Object lesson.

[RPB]

Flintknapper and AJ80

I am fairly confident where I will go if this situation goes south. My brother left our church a couple of years ago, and the pastor at his current church not only welcomes but encourages carrying.

I guess where I am at on this whole deal is that, IF the "LEO elite" form their security team and don't make a big deal about CHL holders, I am going to keep my mouth shut and stay where I am, but if ANYTHING comes up about no one carrying but "security", I will be turning north out of my driveway instead of south.

Since the preacher wants me to take him hog hunting, that will be an opportunity to feel him out on the current situation.

Take him, but don't let him bring a gun. Object lesson.

But, bring hymnals/song books? ..
What's YOUR active shooter plan? - If the shooter enters the classroom, throw books at him.
Should work for wild boar too ...