Need some advice and suggestions on hand to hand fighting

[Skiprr]

Methinks that many of us fall prey to a scientificly-established study that has uncovered a substantial problem - M.I.S. - the Mirror Image Syndrome.

I think that changes sometime between the early- to late-50s. We may not automatically become wiser with age, but ya simply can’t ignore that joints hurt, make mysterious grinding noises (I’ll never sneak up on anyone in silence again), and that getting out bed becomes far more of an adventure than you ever thought it would be when you were 20.

In fact, I wrote this last night as part of that over-long post, but deleted it ’cause I couldn’t find a suitable place for it:

My best advice regarding unarmed skills: be a male between the ages of 19 and 29, be 5’11” to 6’4” tall, weigh 200 pounds or more, be very strong, be very fast, be very athletic, and be very fit. Simple! No formal training involved!

So your point is well taken. The demographics of Texas CHL holders finds the belly of the bell curve at that very 50-to-60 age group, so something tells me a lot of us become more realistic when looking in the mirror once we reach...uh, er, a suitable maturity.

One that has absolutely zero application in a real world defense scenario that I loved (did it 10 hours+ a week at my most avid) was fencing. It is a good workout, and has been described as "physical chess". You have to read your opponent, understand distances and timing, attack and defend...

Hey; not true. Fencing has a lot of practical application in real-world scenarios. I highlighted essentials that are applicable to any combatives technique.

In fact, a lot of fencing footwork has found its way into tactical training. The familiar “Tactical ‘L’” is based on the Inquartata and Passata-sotto, and in Filipino Arnis, the footwork known as ritriada is awfully similar to fencing’s Ballestra.

That’s another thing that happens as you start to move officially into senior citizenship: you start to see similarities in many different things that used to look distinctly separate. Hey, there’s gotta be some advantage to getting older...

[57moon]

Skiprr, Great comments and great advise.

Medic624, I had the same thoughts. We are not always going to be able to avoid a situation and we may not have the luxury of drawing to stop the threat. I did a little searching and learned of Target-Focus Training. A program designed by Tim Larkin that can import a basic sense of human 2 human threat mitigation. Check out the website at http://www.targetfocustraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I am studying the material and find it very valuable. Skiprr is right; awareness, avoidence, de-escelate and escape; but if that's not possible, and you can't draw; then the skills you learn from TFT very likely will save your life - but I present just one person's opinion.

Kindest Regards,

[ELB]

I've been seriously researching taking some kind of unarmed fighting style ... .

Good for you!

You didn't mention your age -- some others brought up some of the problems that occur over time -- but to me being older is not an excuse to avoid studying combatives other than the handgun. All that things that make it hard -- creakiness, stiffness, less muscle, more fat, whatever -- also make it more likely that you will be targeted for an attack. Having awareness and gun and observing the three "S" strategy goes a long way, but is not a 100% guarantee you won't be surprised, or that you won't be someplace you can't have your gun when something bad happens.

I am 51 and train with a couple other guys up in Austin in AMOK with some Systema thrown in. Among the regulars, the "kid" is 40, I am next, the instructor is 58, and I don't know how old our latest recruit is -- late 50s at youngest, probably older. We often meet up with some guys from Killeen, some of them soldiers from Ft Hood, and it is hard to go up against them, but we do -- and we don't always lose. Good practice. Also, this has given me much more incentive for to do physical training on my own, largely "bodyweight" exercises, which are doing me some serious good.

Not that I'm have any reservations or feel I couldn't draw and (if needed shoot) BUT my issue is (despite the threat of violence) a jury of my peers will hear over and over and over how I shot an unarmed "GOOD" man who was a "LOVING" church going man who, sure he had some minor issues but was on his way "getting back on track!".

The first order of business if you are attacked is to survive. If you are presented with an imminent threat to your life or limb, do what you have to do to get out of it, worry about juries later. Yes there are horrendous examples of good guys going to jail due to ambiguous circumstances, rotten DAs, etc, but first you have be alive and in good enough shape to face trial. And on the whole I believe those are exceptions, not the the rule.

And, if I feel threatened enough, what happens if he is advancing, I feel my life is in danger, I draw and before I pull the trigger he stops well... Then what? does he say, "OH, WoW, Uh... my bad, I'm just gonna go and you have a nice day sir" and THEN what do I do??.

Then you won! Let him go, make sure you are really safe, call the cops ASAP. Go home and be happy.

I'm leaning toward either Krav Maga or Something similar .

There seem to be a lot of Krav Maga schools around. As noted above, I have been going the AMOK route, and because the leader of our little training group is also studying Systema and Guided Chaos, we have been incorporating some of that into our sessions as well.

I think doing something is better than doing nothing. If the training is any good, then you will quickly come to realize your limitations, rather than getting overconfident. If the training is NOT showing you your limitations, then I would find another place.

[Medic624]

I've been seriously researching taking some kind of unarmed fighting style ... .

Good for you!

You didn't mention your age

Thanks everyone for such concise and thought out responses...

I just turned 43... And AMOK? I will have to research that... I've ALWAYS wanted to study Aikido but I will have to research the real world practicality as opposed to Krav Maga... But my issue is if it was commensurate and quickly learned to become relatively efficient in the art it would be taught to more agencies who do real world missions.

My son-in-law is a former Navy S.E.A.L. and he and I were talking about going to Krav Maga together. He said when he was on the team they taught them a fighting system called S.C.A.R.S. But, as far as I know they don't have schools available to learn their system. Krav Maga seems to provide real world solutions to real bad situations.

[MMac]

I've ridden (motorcycles) with the founder of the SCARS system. We were on a long ride for some BBQ, didn't get around to discussing any of it. Heard it's the most expensive SD out there, but supposed to be very good. When I win the lottery I may have to consider going out to train with him.

[Oldgringo]

ELB wrote:

-- but to me being older is not an excuse to avoid studying combatives other than the handgun. All that things that make it hard -- creakiness, stiffness, less muscle, more fat, whatever -- also make it more likely that you will be targeted for an attack...

Right on, Bro!

Approaching three score and ten on the birthday scale greatly minimizes my desire for any kind of hand to hand fightin'. Outrunnin' my attacker/s is no longer much of an option either. I reckon I'll just have to rely on my SA 1911 LW Compact for self protection should, heaven forbid, the need arise.

[seeker_two]

You may also want to look at some of Michael Janich's training....his system is pretty KISS and effective with a wide variety of situations....

http://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/

If you have a boxing gym in your area, I'd also look at boxing...it's an effective martial art that gets ignored a lot....and it shouldn't.....

[doc.lonestar]

Any sort of martial arts training will do you some good. Just from the physical fitness aspect alone you will benefit. Cant win a fight if you cant breath lol.

Something that I have seen recently that my kids are doing now is mma training. They cover aspects of striking, grappling, and bjj giving them a very well rounded background. When compared to the formalized training that I went thru this seems to be more fluid and pratical.

[fm2]

Most martial arts are about dominating and controlling people and spaces. That's why fighting and self defense is often broken down into ranges. How these concepts apply to CHL folks is a pretty special integration of skills. I have seen very few who have done a good job with this. The ONE exception is ShivWorks.

The dynamics of criminal assault, namely we are usually re-acting, may require us to start from a very disadvantageous position. That's precisely the reason we want to get good at these ranges, to improve our position so we can prevail.

Skiprr here's some video of Brazillian Jiu Jitsu
NOTE: Video contains profanity
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[LSUTiger]

I myself have the same question as the OP. I think my biggest advantage in a hand to hand fight is to take someone to the ground as quickly as possible and use my size and weight to my advantage. Standing and trying to punch and kick or box my way out out trouble does not work to my advantage against a quicker and more physically fit opponent.

I have always leaned toward wrestling/grappling as a natural fighting style, it comes more instinctive to me. I wouldn't get caught up in which style is the best, determine which is best for you. Determine what will work to your best advantage and what you are good at.

I am thinking of taking Gracie Jiu Jitsu classes as a new program has opened up in my area. Although Karate programs are also available, having tried it before, I don't feel it's best for me as a means of self defense. If I was lighting fast and had exceptional skill I might feel different but I think Jiu Jitsu/Grappling will be much easier to learn and most effective for me. I not interested in sport,only self defense.

[74novaman]

I not interested in sport,only self defense.

Then you need to check out Krav Maga.

[Skiprr]

I not interested in sport,only self defense.

I recommend you read some of the year-old posts above.

With over 40 years of martial arts experience, I can tell you one thing: Almost nobody teaches martial arts and handgun combined...at least, nobody that does it well.

I've taken a class with Kelly McCann, and that was about the closest I've come to a melding of combatives and firearms.

Your mileage may vary.

[RHenriksen]

Nice to see so much awareness of the limitations of different forms of martial arts. I've been training in a classical M.A. school for a good 15 years, and I'm realistic about it being mostly for the personal benefits rather than street survival.

I recently stumbled across Youtube videos about a Russian combat system called Systema ("the system"). I was fascinated, and plan on taking a seminar on it when possible. Try searching for 'martin wheeler systema' on Youtube.

[sawdust]

Nice to see so much awareness of the limitations of different forms of martial arts. I've been training in a classical M.A. school for a good 15 years, and I'm realistic about it being mostly for the personal benefits rather than street survival.

QUESTION. Should I (or most of us) consider Martial Arts for effective self-defense?

CONSIDERATIONS
Over 30 (also over 50, 60)
Out of youth
Out of practice
Out of (fightin') shape
Out of speed
Out of agility
Unsure of balance
Limited in endurance
Less muscle strength than at previous ages

ANSWER
Up close and personal, at best I may have the opportunity for one surprise move against an assailant - (e.g. kick to knee or groin, hand to nose). Holds, sweeps, flips, sparring, wrestling, grappling, or whatever are not really an option. Of course, having to make that "surprise move" means that all previous Plans have failed. Give me distance and superior power.

To draw a comparison, while there are many people who look upon skydiving as a "sport", pilots (aka, the real world) see jumping out of an airplane as a last-ditch emergency procedure, with often-serious aftermaths. As I see it, same goes for martial arts.

[txhighlander]

Nice to see so much awareness of the limitations of different forms of martial arts. I've been training in a classical M.A. school for a good 15 years, and I'm realistic about it being mostly for the personal benefits rather than street survival.

I recently stumbled across Youtube videos about a Russian combat system called Systema ("the system"). I was fascinated, and plan on taking a seminar on it when possible. Try searching for 'martin wheeler systema' on Youtube.

There is a good school in Austin. I have been to 2 Systema seminars, it will change the way you look at things if you will give it a chance. It is unlike anything I have ever done. Try http://www.russianmartialart.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; it is the main school. I have learned a lot and hope to learn more.