Need some advice and suggestions on hand to hand fighting

[Medic624]

I've been seriously researching taking some kind of unarmed fighting style to augment or give options to the final solution of having to draw my weapon if placed in an escalating confrontational situation that I have no obvious means to be able to readily remove myself from...

My thought is... If I have other "tools" at my disposal to be better prepared if I am placed into a situation I can not remove myself from without some sort of "hands on" it only increases my ability to protect my family, my self etc...

An issue that has been on my mind lately..

IF... I'm in an unavoidable confrontation and the assailant is clearly unarmed but he is obviously going to get physical with me I just don't think it is "justifiable" or "right" in this circumstance to draw my weapon and escalate the incident to deadly force...and I know... We get into a tussle and he gets my weapon and then it gets real bad but...

Not that I'm have any reservations or feel I couldn't draw and (if needed shoot) BUT my issue is (despite the threat of violence) a jury of my peers will hear over and over and over how I shot an unarmed "GOOD" man who was a "LOVING" church going man who, sure he had some minor issues but was on his way "getting back on track!"

And, if I feel threatened enough, what happens if he is advancing, I feel my life is in danger, I draw and before I pull the trigger he stops well... Then what? does he say, "OH, WoW, Uh... my bad, I'm just gonna go and you have a nice day sir" and THEN what do I do??

SO...

I'm thinking I need to know other means to "diffuse" a situation...

I'm leaning toward either Krav Maga or Something similar

Anyone have experience with Krav Maga? There's what seems to be a pretty no nonsense place over here in Pearland that I was thinking about checking out.

[Skiprr]

Good for you. And there are more reasons than that to have some basic unarmed combative skills, at any age. PM coming to you.

I don't know anything about the Krav Maga school in Pearland but, from the standpoint purely of "style," I think it's an excellent and practical choice. When interviewing potential instructors, I'd be sure to learn the level of experience they have incorporating firearms into their curricula. I've seen defenses against firearms and firearm retention taught fairly routinely, but few instructors who really understand how to incorporate the use of a handgun as part of the close-contact defensive syllabus.

There's no local instruction for it, but if you can't find a school that really incorporates handgun use, you could always look into traveling to take a few-day course with Kelly McCann and his simple system of combatives.

[74novaman]

Krav Maga is awesome. The wife and I took it for a little while before we moved to Temple. Great skills, great workout. And there's no "rules", it is designed for the express purpose of messing up anyone who tries to harm you. big +1 from me.

[paulhailes]

IF... I'm in an unavoidable confrontation and the assailant is clearly unarmed but he is obviously going to get physical with me I just don't think it is "justifiable" or "right" in this circumstance to draw my weapon and escalate the incident to deadly force...and I know... We get into a tussle and he gets my weapon and then it gets real bad but...

One thing I have to point out here, is it is VERY possible to be killed or to have serious bodily harm inflicted upon yourself by an "unarmed" attacker. Thats not to say that learning to fight is a bad thing, I highly recommend it, for one because you cant always get to your gun right away. I would say Jiu Jitsu would be helpful, its mainly ground fighting and submissions, but you will learn take downs which would allow you time to get to your weapon. Jiu Jitsu would be good to know if you don't carry 24/7, as it is a very effective fighting style, trust me when I started out I was like why do I need to do this I can just throw a punch or a kick or something. When we got to sparing I asked why is this better than traditional karate, he told me to throw a punch and I would see... I did, I ended up on the ground in a submission before I even figured out what happened.

[Skiprr]

A follow-on note—just MHO as an old and out-of-shape guy, but one whose martial arts experience goes back over four decades—my opinion is that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and other, similar, ground-grappling systems would not be at the top of my list of hand-to-hand styles best-suited to CHL holders. Three very basic reasons for this.

First, systems that are primarily ground-fighting are practiced on mats or in a suspended-surface ring. It’s a whole ’nuther story when the action is moved to a concrete parking lot (and guess where, statistically, a violent confrontation is most likely: a parking lot). Going to ground on concrete with a physically strong opponent can dramatically change the playing field.

Second, while extremely effective in one-on-one encounters as proven by Royce Gracie when he brought the style to popular visibility in 1993, it suffers when faced with multiple attackers. Now, I would never have wanted to stick my tongue out at Royce with even a couple of other guys backing me up, but ground-grappling practitioners have to be really good to take on multiple attackers. It isn't all that difficult to kick a ground-fighter in the head while he’s occupied applying a rear naked choke to your buddy.

Third, if wearing a firearm, going to ground should never be a first option when having to defend yourself or—most especially—others. You risk trapping the firearm and taking it out of the equation, or much worse, making it available to the attacker for a takeaway. And once you’re on the ground and tied up in a struggle, there’s very little you can do to try to protect your spouse or children until you effectively dispatch your attacker.

I have never seen handgun use incorporated into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or any similar ground-fighting variant. My personal opinion is that’s because the two simply don’t complement each other.

No knock against Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or any of its MMA derivatives in any way. Grappling and joint-locking are very valuable skills. But if I intend to carry a handgun I’d want to be sure to tailor my combatives training around that fact. Ground-fighting just doesn’t do that.

[rbftfire]

This is all very valuable advice. I will tend to agree with all who are on the Krav Maga supporters list. I have studied several martial arts and I really love Judo. When a BJJ school opened up near me, I switched and fell in love. Later on, I studied Krav Maga at an IKMF school. I only stopped because I had to move and there are no Krav Maga schools close to me. I respect all martial arts and believe they all have value and purpose. For practical, real life defense, Krav Maga is the way I would go for sure.

[paulhailes]

This is all very valuable advice. I will tend to agree with all who are on the Krav Maga supporters list. I have studied several martial arts and I really love Judo. When a BJJ school opened up near me, I switched and fell in love. Later on, I studied Krav Maga at an IKMF school. I only stopped because I had to move and there are no Krav Maga schools close to me. I respect all martial arts and believe they all have value and purpose. For practical, real life defense, Krav Maga is the way I would go for sure.

Sounds like I might be giving Krav Maga a try as well, I have heard good things about it but havent had much time to look into it.

[snatchel]

Krav Maga was taught monthly as part of my military training, and classes were free. It's definately no non-sense, no frills, easy techniques. No tricks, none of that fancy stuff to memorize and do over and over before it becomes effective. It's not really designed to be elegant and fun to watch, it's fast and brutal--but effective. Having said that, I'm not sure I would have rather learned Krav Maga or aikido. Aikido has a lot of cool stuff that is really effective with weapon retention and disarming, a buddy of mine teaches it here in town and I have taken several classes for both.

That said, our instructors in the military always said, "Krav maga is awesome stuff, but not ideal. We issue you rifles and handguns and make you all experts with both so that you dont have to punch the enemy--you just shoot them."

[yerasimos]

Try searching the "Advanced Training" or other subforums here; occasionally there are discussions on non-firearm training, including empty hand stuff.

Also consider some of Geoff Thompson's books.

Here is a question to consider: what non-weapon skills should a citizen (whether armed or not) possess or develop to protect him/herself from criminal aggression? This may seem very broad or vague, but I think it is a valid question and can help determine what is worth spending time upon and what can be safely ignored.

[Skiprr]

It’s a very valid question, though I do believe there is a distinction between the person who carries a firearm and one who does not. Many individual techniques will be identical, but the intended results of empty-hand defense will be guided by the fact that we carry a handgun; it means that we have a force-multiplier to utilize...and also must defend against its use against us.

I think we should be very clear and up-front for newer Forum members that the defensive priorities are always: number one, awareness; number two, avoidance; number three, de-escalation; and number four, escape.

Truly the only way to win a fight, any fight, is not to fight at all.

You can quote me on that.

Seriously, the vast majority of civilian, non-LEO encounters we read about could have been prevented entirely by awareness and avoidance. If you come home to an open front door, don’t try to clear the house yourself; if somebody cuts you off in traffic, don’t try to get payback; if someone verbally challenges you, don’t get into an altercation; lock your doors, stay alert, and for goodness sake remember that little that is good happens after midnight.

Even if you take great care, sometimes awareness and avoidance aren’t enough. Urban areas are more densely populated than ever before and, if you live and work in a big city, just stop and consider the number of times each day you come within six to 10 feet of strangers, even strangers your Spidey sense might profile as...well, iffy.

Inside a radius of zero to 10 feet, defending your life is about fighting, not marksmanship. Statistics show that a deadly-force encounter is most likely to happen at less than 10 feet from the assailant (see NYPD’s Department Order SOP 9, a study including over 6,000 individual cases). However, very few CHL holders practice any techniques whatsoever at close-contact distances.

Also keep in mind that, as CHL holders, we have more burden of law placed upon us with regard to presenting our firearms than do police officers. We have to be darned certain that when we draw, it is justified. And we have clothing covering our weapons that we have to get out of the way before we can even start the draw.

In practical, outside-the-home street situations, the CHL holder is always going to be at the wrong end of the action-reaction curve if something serious starts to go down. We can’t pull our guns preemptively, we probably don’t have an armed partner backing us up, and we may have loved-ones with us that we need to protect.

That we carry a gun does, for me, change the criteria for applying unarmed combat techniques.

I lived in Asia for almost seven years, and studied martial arts in the Philippines and Japan the entirety of that time. For two summers I had a rare opportunity to study a modified form of Indonesian Silat. Later (back in the States) I studied a northern-Chinese system for a few years. I taught and practiced for several years after that.

Now that I’m old, gray, fat, and wizened my informed advice is: KISS. Keep it simple, keep it practical, and require as little as possible of your physical capabilities and mental memory to do it.

If you haven’t read Musashi’s Go Rin No Sho (“A Book of Five Rings”; a thin book, but any translation necessitates multiple readings) I recommend it. One of my favorite quotations: “Do nothing that is of no use.”

There is much in any “traditional” martial art that is of no use, IMHO. Even Filipino Arnis, which intrinsically is a pure fighting skill the history of which is collectively shared by many islands in the Philippines and is not a codified art or sport (ignore Escrima), has morphed into “schools” with their own “traditions” and “lineages” and “styles.” Worse, some of those schools have decided to call the system “Kali,” which never appeared anywhere in the literature until Dan Inosanto decided to try to pre-date Arnis in his book. Don’t get me started.

That’s not to say traditional martial arts are of no value. There are only so many ways you can lock an elbow joint, and all those were thought up over a millennium ago.

But we get back to KISS. Earlier, I mentioned Kelly McCann and his Combatives course. I’ve taken a course from McCann and he’s old school in his approach to hand-to-hand, new school in his approach to handguns and integrating the two. He gets a thumbs-up.

Yerasimos mentioned Geoff Thompson. Some great stuff, including the Wing Chun-derived “fence” technique. But Geoff lives in the UK and, to my knowledge, has no experience with firearms. Another source is Marc MacYoung. Also good, basic stuff, but he doesn’t address the carrying of a firearm.

I recommend Craig Reynolds of ShivWorks. He also has a background in Filipino Arnis and has adapted it to modern, real-world confrontations. Thumbs up.

Folks may dis me, but Gabe Suarez offers courses about being in the “hole.” I’ve taken a couple of his close-range gunfighting courses, and I recommend them.

[karder]

I have studied Aikido and Jiu Jitsu for many years and I strongly believe that everyone should have good hand to hand combat skills. While I do believe that Jiu Jitsu is an excellent martial art, Skiprr's comments are valid about some of the potential "problems" with the art. Every art has it's strengths and weaknesses and Hollywood has badly blurred the line of reality.
Here is my .02 cents. To learn a martial art requires a lot of time, patience and dedication. You have to do it for the love of the art. If you just want practical self defense skills, get into a boxing class. If you can learn basic striking, movement, footwork, and balance, you will know 90% of what you need to protect yourself on the street. Supplement that by taking a grappling class or studying a grappling art like Jiu jitsu, Judo, or even Aikido so that you will have some skills if the fight goes to the ground. There are no magic bullets unfortunately.

[schufflerbot]

im a muay thai and jiu jitsu guy myself.

krav maga is great, but it doesnt teach you the fundamental power strikes that i think are vital in a street fight situation.

muay thai, however, is known for just that. single strikes that end conflicts/contests/arguments.

krav maga is great if you're planning to go into a combat situation, whereas muay thai is almost useless in that arena.

however, since you're wanting to be 'bar saavy' id say look into some muay thai.

all it will take is one day of training with each and you'll immediately understand the differences.

[sawdust]

Methinks that many of us fall prey to a scientificly-established study that has uncovered a substantial problem - M.I.S. - the Mirror Image Syndrome. The syndrome manifests itself in both males and females, but in substantially different ways. Instead of using the medical and statistical jargon, I will try to pass on how it would relate to me:

Each morning, I get up and look in the mirror. And I see 29. Intellectually, I do know that I am a few years (decades) older, but nonetheless, the mirror image shows me as being much younger. Since I see myself as 29, I think that I can still act as if I am that age. I think that I have the speed, agility, and balance of those years. MIS causes me to overlook several factors:
1) I haven't practiced those types of hand-to-hand moves for many years.
2) I have forgotten that practice is merely role-playing - both sides are really on the same team, and one goal is to not hurt the other player.
3) I have not fully accepted that I am not as strong as I used to be, or that my bones may break more easily.
4) I do not realize that my true image may make me appear to be more of a potential victim than I perceive myself to be.
5) I am not nearly as capable as I think I am, and never will be, regarding physicalilty.
6) By repeatedly watching how close-in action is done in the movies, I feel that I still have the tools and capabilities to do the same things, since it is so easy.

So, thinking that I am safer by "knowing" any or all of the multiple disciplines of combat fighting is nothing but a false image that could lead me to improper decision-making. If a situation calls for less-than-lethal response, I would rather depend on pepper spray rather than my long-gone "29 year-old" skills.

[MMac]

I agree with many of the comments here, especially Skiprr's. Krav Maga may be good or even look into Kajukembo/Kajukenbo. I've trained in many arts over the past 35 years and am still very active, holding several master levels. Even though I feel fairly confident in empty hand fighting, I now also have a CCW. I did take a tactical H2H class with an HPD officer that was for close quarters attacks which I thought was awsome and I plan to attend others in the future. I've also been attending basic pistol tactical classes.

Each art has it's purpose. Can't hurt training in various arts and will hopefully help you even when carrying. Good to have options.

[74novaman]

One that has absolutely zero application in a real world defense scenario that I loved (did it 10 hours+ a week at my most avid) was fencing. It is a good workout, and has been described as "physical chess". You have to read your opponent, understand distances and timing, attack and defend...I'd recommend everyone try it just because its so much fun.

In the Krav class I took, they covered lots of "real world" type situations. Breaking choke holds from front and behind, fighting on the ground, fighting off a group (mainly just being a madman and engaging everyone until an opening appears to run for it). I moved before we got to advanced stuff, but they also taught how to disarm someone of a knife, how to go from "nonchalant looking" to raining down holy heck...

Others have talked about how different disciplines have different strengths and weaknesses. To me, this was the advantage of Krav. They're not real big on the "bow to your sensei", or "you have to do this move like this for proper form". It was all, This guy has a choke hold on you, here's some ways to break it....now choke your partner, and try not to break each others arms.