Property Defense in West TX Question

[srothstein]

I just wanted to point out one thing in your original post that seems to have been missed. It is not legal in Texas to use deadly force to prevent criminal trespass. You cannot use your firearm for people just on the property. The same is true if they are stealing something and it is still daytime.

Now, for people who break into the building, that is a different story. Then you can use deadly force if necessary. Burglary, whether a building or a habitation, allows for deadly force any time.

I strongly suggest you read Chapter 9 of the Texas Penal Code on justifications for force. Your profile shows your location as Van Horn but you mentioned that you have a PA permit and not one from Texas. That would generally mean you have not been given the Texas laws as part of the class and we definitely do things a little differently than PA. We honor the PA permit, but I strongly suggest you read our laws or take a Texas CHL class - even if you do not get a Texas CHL.

[WildBill]

I strongly suggest you read Chapter 9 of the Texas Penal Code on justifications for force. Your profile shows your location as Van Horn but you mentioned that you have a PA permit and not one from Texas. That would generally mean you have not been given the Texas laws as part of the class and we definitely do things a little differently than PA. We honor the PA permit, but I strongly suggest you read our laws or take a Texas CHL class - even if you do not get a Texas CHL.

As per usual, very good points Steve.

[YWHIC]

not planning on shooting anyone for simple tresspass.. but I intend on getting a TX CHL as soon as I become a resident.. I will check up on the TX code you mentioned.. thank you for the info.

[WildBill]

not planning on shooting anyone for simple tresspass.. but I intend on getting a TX CHL as soon as I become a resident.. I will check up on the TX code you mentioned.. thank you for the info.

There is no minimum time limit for living in Texas. As long as you have a TX DL and plan to live in Texas, that is enough to get your Texas CHL.

[YWHIC]

No Texas DL for at least another 3-5 years when I can finally move permanently out there..

waiting for my son to reach 16-18.. he comes first..

[WildBill]

No Texas DL for at least another 3-5 years when I can finally move permanently out there.. waiting for my son to reach 16-18.. he comes first..

I understand. Your children are priority #1!

[03Lightningrocks]

I have been on deer leases where illegals crossed through. We always left the doors unlocked. No point in making them break in. Less damage that way. The few times we left sleeping bags in the place, they would be gone. We would leave water and sometimes left over drinks or food out there. It would usually be gone also. Our goal was to keep things friendly so when we were out there, we didn't have to worry too much about trouble. It usually worked. I can remember watching them cross through on occasion from my deer stand. Other than messing up my hunting for a few hours, they never looked for trouble. Like any other situation, I am sure there were good guys and bad guys. We were lucky and never met the bad guys but we did stay alert to the possibility.

[speedsix]

...a CHL doesn't change anything for the OP...in his car or on his property...he can carry openly or concealed...maybe, being out of state, he doesn't know that, either...

...it's sad that his property might not be there when he comes back to it...and that he might be sued for leaving for his unwanted guests something that's too scratchy or no their favorite brand...isn't the world upside down!!!

[baldeagle]

I just wanted to point out one thing in your original post that seems to have been missed. It is not legal in Texas to use deadly force to prevent criminal trespass. You cannot use your firearm for people just on the property. The same is true if they are stealing something and it is still daytime.

Are you certain of this? Sec. 9.41 states that it is lawful to use force to prevent or terminate trespass. Sec. 9.42 says it is lawful to use deadly force to protect land under certain conditions. If someone has taken possession of his cabin, refuses to leave and presents a deadly threat to him, wouldn't he be justified in using deadly force to regain possession of his cabin?

Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.


Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

It seems to me that under certain conditions he could use deadly force, but he would have to be very careful about his justifications.

Whether it's wiser to confront someone in his cabin or call the Sheriff and wait outside is another matter, but the law seems to give him the right to exercise deadly force in certain situations.

[YWHIC]

...a CHL doesn't change anything for the OP...in his car or on his property...he can carry openly or concealed...maybe, being out of state, he doesn't know that, either...

...it's sad that his property might not be there when he comes back to it...and that he might be sued for leaving for his unwanted guests something that's too scratchy or no their favorite brand...isn't the world upside down!!!

I do know that I can carry open or concealed on my property (I used to do that when I lived in NJ)

I was merely pointing out I had some form of CCP/CHL..

Also an NRA Basic Pistol Instructor since 2003 and PA Act 235 (Armed Guard Cert)..

Not that the last 2 hold any water in TX..

1st I have to put something out there.. before I can worry about it..

[Barbi Q]

Are you certain of this? Sec. 9.41 states that it is lawful to use force to prevent or terminate trespass. Sec. 9.42 says it is lawful to use deadly force to protect land under certain conditions. If someone has taken possession of his cabin, refuses to leave and presents a deadly threat to him, wouldn't he be justified in using deadly force to regain possession of his cabin?

He said it was a different story for burglars.

Trespass is people on his land without his consent. They could be illegals. They could be locals hunting on his land without his permission. In the suburbs, it could be the neighbor's kid coming into your yard to get her soccer ball.

Normal citizens can't legally use deadly force for someone simply walking across their land, even if there's a sign that says trespassers will be shot on sight.

[WildBill]

1st I have to put something out there.. before I can worry about it..

First things, first.

[Skiprr]

...a CHL doesn't change anything for the OP...in his car or on his property...he can carry openly or concealed...maybe, being out of state, he doesn't know that, either...

I do know that I can carry open or concealed on my property (I used to do that when I lived in NJ)

I think it's worth pointing out that the statement about open carry in a car is incorrect under Texas law. PC §46.02(a-1)(1) is clear that, "A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which... the handgun is in plain view..."

There is special treatment for a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, but a car or other simple passenger vehicle never meets that criterion.

As always, IANAL, so always research for yourself...

[pedalman]

The Question:

If I were to fly out (for my vacation) and drive out to it, and have a TX (or in my case my PA CCP).. and find someone on my property, in the building, or in general tresspassing can I legally defend MY PROPERTY??

Want a little clarification...

You don't need to be asking us. You need to be asking your attorney.

[Jumping Frog]

not planning on shooting anyone for simple tresspass.. but I intend on getting a TX CHL as soon as I become a resident.. I will check up on the TX code you mentioned.. thank you for the info.

There is no minimum time limit for living in Texas. As long as you have a TX DL and plan to live in Texas, that is enough to get your Texas CHL.

No Texas DL for at least another 3-5 years when I can finally move permanently out there.. waiting for my son to reach 16-18.. he comes first..

Texas issues a non-resident CHL.

Since my house has not yet sold in Ohio and I have not purchased yet in Texas, I am still a legal resident of Ohio although staying and working in Houston. When I first came here, I was carrying on my Centre County PA non-resident license since Texas will not recognize my Ohio license.

Since that time, I have taken the Texas training and gotten my Texas non-resident license. It is tied to my Ohio Driver License. After I establish residency, I'll simply do an address change.