NY: Police officer shot dead by other officers

[seamusTX]

In Massapequa Park, Long Island, New York, a deranged man was threatening neighbors with knives. Along with uniformed police officers responding, a plain-clothes "special operations" officer showed up with a rifle.

A Metropolitan Transportation Authority officer fatally shot the plain-clothes officer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/nyreg ... ?src=twrhp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This unfortunate incident raises two concerns:

• People who are not immediately recognizable as LEO or other good guys responding to a chaotic scene where uniformed officers are already in place
• The proliferation of agencies in densely populated urban areas

We have the latter problem in places like Houston, where an incident might draw responses from Houston PD, Harris County Sheriff's deputies, constables, and possibly university or HISD police. And that's only in the parts of Houston that are in Harris County. There are some areas of Houston that require close examination of a map to figure out which county they are in.

- Jim

[Beiruty]

Lack of trainning? from the short info we have in the story. The officer was shot in his side with no waning, carrying a rifle should not be considered a threat unless pointed at the one who pulled the trugger. I smell a rat (coverup). Those MTA LEOs need more trainning!

[seamusTX]

On whose part?

- Jim

[gigag04]

This is tragic. Don't be so quick to attack those involved or comment on their training. Each person out there was trying to help and some things went very bad.

[Oldgringo]

The question is: who is a good guy and who is the bad guy? Without uniforms, everybody looks alike. One assumes the uniforms are good guys, conversely....who knows?

EDIT:

{I hate gettin' up this early!}

[b322da]

Mistakes are made, but they should not be invited. I have often been concerned by the "uniforms" I have seen constables and their deputies wear. In three different Texas counties I have seen these LEOs too often wear blue jeans, a T-shirt and a big Glock. The only thing marking them as LEOs was a little patch on the T-shirt visible only close up. IMHO this invites a tragic mistake closer to home.

Elmo

[flintknapper]

The question is: who is a good guy and who is the bad guy? Without uniforms, everybody looks alike. One assumes the uniforms are good guys, conversely....who knows?

EDIT:

{I hate gettin' up this early!}

A person should not be shot based on what they are wearing.

Nor should the mere presence of a gun...be the criteria upon which action is taken.

If a person is known to be armed, then... WHAT THAT PERSON IS DOING with the weapon...should be the deciding factor. And yes, thats a training issue.

[seamusTX]

Should, would, or could will not buy you a cup of coffee. (I've said that before now.)

Many police officers will shoot at anyone holding a weapon. They have come out and said this in public and still have their jobs.

- Jim

[Beiruty]

Should, would, or could will not buy you a cup of coffee. (I've said that before now.)

Many police officers will shoot at anyone holding a weapon. They have come out and said this in public and still have their jobs.

- Jim

LEOs are not in battlefield fighting the enemies. Even at war, there are POWs and forcibly disarmed fighters.

[ELB]

The location where this took place is kind of a special case in the realm of "man in civilian attire is holding a gun," especially a rifle. In the case cited in the OP, it being a police rifle, it was most likely an AR-15 type, in other words, an assault rifle OMG!

Same county where the DA forbids anyone on his staff to own a handgun or have a permit for one.

Same county where the policeman in charge of local licensing for gun dealers threatened a local FFL for refusing to transfer a firearm to another cop, apparently illegally. Then orchestrated an warrantless raid, arrested the FFL and seized guns. Then saw all the charges dismissed but refused to return the guns. Then suspended the FFL's local licenses anyway, shutting down his business until he could finally get them back, no doubt after much legal effort.

Then orchestrated yet another raid on the same FFL, plus five others -- on the eve of jury selection for the FFLs lawsuit against the county for the license suspension.
http://www.longislandlawyerblog.com/wha ... tore-raids" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?f=94&t=42325&hilit=nassau+county" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a county with a forum devoted to just the county's rules on firearms ownership, with forum questions like "Can I let someone else shoot my pistol at the range?" (apparently NO, unless they also have a license), and "Can take more than one gun to the range?" (Apparently yes, but the number and how they can be transported...not so obvious.) Where one of the forum members is excited because after 10.5 months, $200+ dollars, an interview, and who knows what other hoops, he finally has a license. Now he can pay another $10 to get another license to buy a gun to go with his first license.
http://www.longislandfirearms.com/forum/b-11/s-35/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to add, when I originally posted this, that Nassau County is also the place that tried to ban "deceptively colored guns." No grandfather clause -- anyone who had a gun that wasn't "black, grey, silver, steel, nickel or army green" would have had to turn them in for destruction without compensation. (Note that all legal guns are registered with the police in Nassau...) I'll bet the cop in civvies had a rifle in the approved color... fat lot of good it did him.

In otherwords, this is a county that fetishizes the demonization of guns, in a city that does the same. "Only criminals have guns." So what is a police officer from any jurisdiction in the NYC area supposed to think when he sees a guy in plain clothes with a gun?

One wonders then, if the police departments just reaped what they have helped to sow.

[seamusTX]

Most likely the deceased officer was trying to do the right thing.

What is it that trickles down?

- Jim

[TexDotCom]

ELB,

check the wording of the last half of the last sentence of paragraph 3.

The word immediately preceeding "down his business until he could finally get them back, no doubt after much legal effort." ought to be personally spell-checked as the machine spell-checking didn't catch the grammatical error.

Otherwise...GREAT post.

[TexDotCom]

Most likely the deceased officer was trying to do the right thing.

What is it that trickles down?

- Jim

Actually, ELB mentioned it...which is what I suggested he change!

[ELB]

ELB,

check the wording of ...etc


Otherwise...GREAT post.

Heh. Freudian slip perhaps. Amazing it got through the forum bad-word-filter, considering that if you try to quote David Farragut accurately, the filter automatically converts it to "Damn the torpedoes..."

And thanks.

[Excaliber]

This is tragic. Don't be so quick to attack those involved or comment on their training. Each person out there was trying to help and some things went very bad.

This is good advice.

There isn't nearly enough good information available on this incident to draw any conclusion at all beyond the stated facts. However, the fact that so little information has been released suggests it's not a story anyone will be proud of when all the details come out.

At this point it can be reasonably said that this is another instance where the IFF (identification friend or foe) problem that has been discussed here in several threads is in play. It again highlights this serious and ongoing issue for police officers, particularly when a plainclothes officer is involved. A non-LEO citizen is not exempt from these concerns.

It can also be reasonably observed that this incident is a reminder of why administrators who train their people to shoot any non uniformed person with a gun could well be setting their agencies up for a future tragedy.