Run in with UNT Police, whose ignorant?

[Sewer_Ice]

Got pulled over by an officer- going 30 in a 20 on campus.
Here's the short version. For the first time during a traffic stop, the officer has me exit the car to get my firearm.
After waiting around for him to run my license and stuff, he comes back. He ask how well I know the concealed handgun license laws, I inform him I know them very well. He says that I CANNOT have my firearm in my car on campus, or anywhere on any university property in the state of Texas..
He says that he's giving me a break, because he can take me to jail. I really bit my tongue here, yes, you can take me to jail, regardless of what the law actually says. I felt like directly quoting 46.03 and 46.035, but that would ensure I would go to jail, be there all day for a judge to hear and rule what the law ACTUALLY IS, and miss a test.

Last I checked, we can't carry on the PREMISES!!! Premises is a building or portion of building, and yes I can have my gun in my car. Guy even made me put it in my trunk Unloaded. I decided just to double check here and make sure theres not some law I'm ignorant of before I call into his department and give his Sargent a piece of my mind.

At least I didn't get the speeding ticket.

[Teamless]

Good outcome to what could have been a lot of time wasted for nothing.
Good job in biting your tongue!
You may want to later on, send a call or note to UNT Police Chief and explain the situation, and remind him of the statutes to educate this officers

[MasterOfNone]

Maybe they need to revise GC 411.205 to read:

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license and a copy of CHL-16.

But seriously. For the LEOs on board, how would you respond if someone you stopped politely asked you to show him the code that makes (whatever you are saying he did wrong) illegal? "Officer, I carry this (CHL-16) around and read it all the time, but I don't recall seeing that. Can you show me what I'm missing?"

[RoyGBiv]

If your student handbook prohibits students from having guns on campus (as I suspect it does), having a gun in your trunk could get you expelled....

The way my instructor explained it is..... If I am NOT a student, I can store my gun in my car on campus.... But... If I AM a student, having a gun in my car on campus is a no-no...

I'm sure some smart folks will be along soon with the relevant law citations.

[Sewer_Ice]

Now, I may be in the wrong here, but even if you don't have a CHL in Texas, can't you have your handgun in your car (glove box) per state law?
I know there was a case in Amarillo (I think) where a High school student had a handgun in his car a few years ago, he was expelled but his attorney got it thrown out as no law was broken!

I'm going to wait till after I'm off campus to do all this, officer took a picture and everything on his PDA before he let me go, have a feeling I'll be randomly stopped at some point to ensure I'm no longer carrying, and I know he's gonna have it out for me after I talk to his boss.

Crazy part is, the only reason why I am going back to school is to be an LEO!

EDIT:
Just read the student code of conduct:
http://www.unt.edu/csrr/pdf/conduct/code_of_conduct.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No mention of firearms what-so-ever! I didn't even violate University Policy! Unless it's listed somewhere else.

[Excaliber]

Maybe they need to revise GC 411.205 to read:

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license and a copy of CHL-16.

But seriously. For the LEOs on board, how would you respond if someone you stopped politely asked you to show him the code that makes (whatever you are saying he did wrong) illegal? "Officer, I carry this (CHL-16) around and read it all the time, but I don't recall seeing that. Can you show me what I'm missing?"

I would rate that approach as a gamble.

A sincere, careful officer who simply hasn't come across the issue enough to carefully reread that section of law among the few hundred thousand others he is required to enforce would be gracious and thank you for bringing that to his attention.

Another officer who focuses on performing to minimum standards and is frequently taken to task by his supervisors for mistakes would likely take it less well and you'd be likely to have a more time consuming unpleasant experience.

I think you handled this one well. Since you got a break on the speed violation, I suspect the officer involved falls into the first category, but the law review is best done by his supervisor. A polite letter to the agency head complimenting the officer on his courtesy and handling of the traffic stop that also mentions that a discussion of CHL related law as it applies to campuses revealed a misunderstanding that could lead to erroneous enforcement action would be a way to address all issues without risking a confrontation or embarrassing an officer who's trying to do his best out there.

[Sewer_Ice]

I forgot to mention, another cruiser pulled up while he was running everything, 2 officers exited. I was thinking for a second, "Am I getting arrested or something?" That's usually what it means when another cruiser pulls up, most departments require 2 officers for an arrest to be made.

The officer who was obviously much older heard this conversation at the end... So it makes me wonder if it's more than just him that's ignorant, unless it's me that is.

[A-R]

With a CHL you should be fine legally with gun in your car (IANAL). But school likely prohibits students/staff to do this via expulsions, job termination etc.

However if you DON'T have a Texas CHL then you are violating Federal gun free school zone laws. Also I think there are some obscure Texas Education Code laws regarding guns on campus for non-CHLs but don't have it in front of me so don't want to misquote anything.

[Sewer_Ice]

With a CHL you should be fine legally with gun in your car (IANAL). But school likely prohibits students/staff to do this via expulsions, job termination etc.

However if you DON'T have a Texas CHL then you are violating Federal gun free school zone laws. Also I think there are some obscure Texas Education Code laws regarding guns on campus for non-CHLs but don't have it in front of me so don't want to misquote anything.

Last I checked (IANAL) the school may only prohibit employees from having a firearm in the car, I could have sworn there was some legislation to this extent, that or it was a ruling. I hope someone more knowledgeable comes by soon. I want to make sure I am correct before I go to a higher authority, or carry on campus again.

[A-R]

With a CHL you should be fine legally with gun in your car (IANAL). But school likely prohibits students/staff to do this via expulsions, job termination etc.

However if you DON'T have a Texas CHL then you are violating Federal gun free school zone laws. Also I think there are some obscure Texas Education Code laws regarding guns on campus for non-CHLs but don't have it in front of me so don't want to misquote anything.

Last I checked (IANAL) the school may only prohibit employees from having a firearm in the car, I could have sworn there was some legislation to this extent, that or it was a ruling. I hope someone more knowledgeable comes by soon. I want to make sure I am correct before I go to a higher authority, or carry on campus again.

Check your student handbook. Again, my non-legal advice understanding is they can't arrest you but they can and will throw you out of school.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Maybe they need to revise GC 411.205 to read:

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license and a copy of CHL-16.

But seriously. For the LEOs on board, how would you respond if someone you stopped politely asked you to show him the code that makes (whatever you are saying he did wrong) illegal? "Officer, I carry this (CHL-16) around and read it all the time, but I don't recall seeing that. Can you show me what I'm missing?"

I would rate that approach as a gamble.

A sincere, careful officer who simply hasn't come across the issue enough to carefully reread that section of law among the few hundred thousand others he is required to enforce would be gracious and thank you for bringing that to his attention.

Another officer who focuses on performing to minimum standards and is frequently taken to task by his supervisors for mistakes would likely take it less well and you'd be likely to have a more time consuming unpleasant experience.

I think you handled this one well. Since you got a break on the speed violation, I suspect the officer involved falls into the first category, but the law review is best done by his supervisor. A polite letter to the agency head complimenting the officer on his courtesy and handling of the traffic stop that also mentions that a discussion of CHL related law as it applies to campuses revealed a misunderstanding that could lead to erroneous enforcement action would be a way to address all issues without risking a confrontation or embarrassing an officer who's trying to do his best out there.

This is excellent advice.

Chas.

[MasterOfNone]

Maybe they need to revise GC 411.205 to read:

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license and a copy of CHL-16.

But seriously. For the LEOs on board, how would you respond if someone you stopped politely asked you to show him the code that makes (whatever you are saying he did wrong) illegal? "Officer, I carry this (CHL-16) around and read it all the time, but I don't recall seeing that. Can you show me what I'm missing?"

I would rate that approach as a gamble.

A sincere, careful officer who simply hasn't come across the issue enough to carefully reread that section of law among the few hundred thousand others he is required to enforce would be gracious and thank you for bringing that to his attention.

Another officer who focuses on performing to minimum standards and is frequently taken to task by his supervisors for mistakes would likely take it less well and you'd be likely to have a more time consuming unpleasant experience.

I think you handled this one well. Since you got a break on the speed violation, I suspect the officer involved falls into the first category, but the law review is best done by his supervisor. A polite letter to the agency head complimenting the officer on his courtesy and handling of the traffic stop that also mentions that a discussion of CHL related law as it applies to campuses revealed a misunderstanding that could lead to erroneous enforcement action would be a way to address all issues without risking a confrontation or embarrassing an officer who's trying to do his best out there.

This is excellent advice.

Chas.

If the officer were going to take you in for what he thought was illegally carrying, would you recommend THEN trying to clarify it with him?

[Charles L. Cotton]

Maybe they need to revise GC 411.205 to read:

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license and a copy of CHL-16.

But seriously. For the LEOs on board, how would you respond if someone you stopped politely asked you to show him the code that makes (whatever you are saying he did wrong) illegal? "Officer, I carry this (CHL-16) around and read it all the time, but I don't recall seeing that. Can you show me what I'm missing?"

I would rate that approach as a gamble.

A sincere, careful officer who simply hasn't come across the issue enough to carefully reread that section of law among the few hundred thousand others he is required to enforce would be gracious and thank you for bringing that to his attention.

Another officer who focuses on performing to minimum standards and is frequently taken to task by his supervisors for mistakes would likely take it less well and you'd be likely to have a more time consuming unpleasant experience.

I think you handled this one well. Since you got a break on the speed violation, I suspect the officer involved falls into the first category, but the law review is best done by his supervisor. A polite letter to the agency head complimenting the officer on his courtesy and handling of the traffic stop that also mentions that a discussion of CHL related law as it applies to campuses revealed a misunderstanding that could lead to erroneous enforcement action would be a way to address all issues without risking a confrontation or embarrassing an officer who's trying to do his best out there.

This is excellent advice.

Chas.

If the officer were going to take you in for what he thought was illegally carrying, would you recommend THEN trying to clarify it with him?

If the officer was actually making the arrest, then yes I absolutely would tell him/her. It's not likely to change their mind, but it helps the post-arrest §1983 lawsuit. An officer cannot make a good faith arrest for that which is clearly not illegal. If it's a gray area the officer is protected. But when it's as clear as the definition of "premises" there's no gray area.

Chas.

[gigag04]

Another thought too, if an officer isn't sharp enough to learn the relevant CHL laws (all LEOs that run traffic encounter a CHL at some point) for their jurisdiction, I wouldn't expect a roadside lesson to do much good. However, that wouldn't dissuade me from educating him to cover my bases against an unlawful arrest and deprivation of 4A rights.

I think a well worded, intelligent, letter to the dept's chief or PIO may be in order. If you list the officer's name in there (which you would be entitled to do) it will be treated a specific complaint and addressed with just that officer. If you send it as a generic FYI and include your own experience, it might lead to a patrol wide, or even dept wide lesson.

As an aside, one of my partners was pulled over by a troop after being followed for 8 miles two weeks ago. Reason for the stop: "Sir your third brake light - the one up on the cab of the pickup - is burned out." My partner said "well, you might know something I don't, but that doesn't sound like PC for a stop. Here I have the full transportation code back here, why don't we take a look-see."

[Sewer_Ice]

Every officer will run into a CHL some point in the career, you'd figure a CAMPUS POLICE OFFICER would know how that applies to his special jurisdiction. Does this guy know something I don't?

I'm going to write a letter, I'll post it on here. The officer I dealt with was very professional, however demeaning towards me, during the incident. He should have better knowledge and I'd ask that the dept. chief make sure his officers know enough about CHL in order to treat those who obey the laws as law-abiding citizens, and not criminals. I could very easily have gone to jail today due to his ignorance, then missed a test. Getting arrested for ANY REASON (innocent, or not having committed any crime) is not an excuse for missing a test for an department at UNT, so I'd have to take a zero for a test grade! I'll make sure to mention this as well, and the fact that I plan on going into law enforcement myself, so I do understand that every officer cannot know every law, but knowing CHL as it pertains to his jurisdiction is important.