case law for "intoxcated" limit while CC

[sjfcontrol]

After reading the paper above regarding how the SFST is executed, I tried the one-leg-stand and the walk-and-turn tests. I could not do them (and no, I hadn't been drinking). I've had problems with my feet and ankles, and simply cannot keep my balance on one foot, my feet together, or one in front of the other. Guess I'd better not get stopped!

[srothstein]

There's something seriously wrong with the math on page II-17 of the manual.

Consider exactly what a BAC of 0.08 means. blood alcohol concentration is expressed in terms of the "number of grams of alcohol in every 100 milliliters of blood". When we find that a person has a BAC of 0.08, that means that there is one-eighth (0.08) of a gram of alcohol in any given 100 milliliter sample of blood. One-eighth of a gram is equal to one hundred milligrams (a milligram is one-thousandth of a gram). So, at a BAC of 0.08, the person has 100 milligrams of alcohol in every 100 milliliters of blood, or exactly one milligram per milliliter. If a person has a BAC of 0.08 it means there are 0.08 grams of pure ethanol in every 100 milliliter ("percent") of his/her blood.

Hmm, I agree with your math and not theirs. That is not the student manual I used since I went through it so long ago and I never caught that mistake. I will have to see if I can find a newer edition and check the math there to see if the error has been corrected.

But I have to say that if the math in the manual officers are taught from is not correct, I can see how it could cause someone to doubt the whole program.

[gigag04]

Regarding the guy with Polio - during pre-screening you obtain info about the suspect's medical history. If you don't get the info, how would you know about the issue. The test also aren't validate for elderly or people 50lbs overweight.

Re: sjfcontrol

You can't walk a line and turn? Can you walk normally when not performing a test? Can you stand on a leg?

Are you elderly or overweight? Do you have any long term injuries? What do you mean when you say you "couldn't" do the tests...

The only reason I've seen that people can't even attempt it is they are extremely intoxicated. Most can do the test, even if exhibiting clues...

[KD5NRH]

Here is a perfect example of someone who may be a little impaired

Which one? The one with a slight balance issue, or the one wasting (taxpayer provided, no doubt) tape to make a straight line when there are several straight, white lines readily available?

[sjfcontrol]

You can't walk a line and turn? Can you walk normally when not performing a test? Can you stand on a leg?

Are you elderly or overweight? Do you have any long term injuries? What do you mean when you say you "couldn't" do the tests...

The only reason I've seen that people can't even attempt it is they are extremely intoxicated. Most can do the test, even if exhibiting clues...

I'm 59. I'm not 50 lbs overweight, but used to be much more than that. I can walk normally, but have problems on uneven surfaces (anything that might tend to throw my ankle to one side or the other -- causing my ankle to buckle). 'Normal' walking and standing is not a problem (with feet NOT together/touching).
I could walk the line, but had to "flop my arms around" to keep my balance with one foot directly in front of the other. Same problem, but not as severe to stand with my feet together. Balancing on one foot would take 10-15 seconds, but not 30, again with some flapping around.

[steveincowtown]

I myself can walk the line, hop on one foot for 10 minutes, and even dance a mean two step. None of this matters, as I would not submit to this testing....ever. It is very subjective, as even though there are guidelines, it is up to the officer to interpret the information he is acquiring visually. I am pro LEO, but I am even more pro Constitution. Don’t be afraid to just say no.

[gigag04]

It's not subjective - you either exhibited a clue or you didn't. It's not like the LEO evaluates his thoughts on your performance out of a possible score of 100 or some other sliding scale.

[steveincowtown]

So if we took 100 officers and showed them a subject exhibiting the exact same clues you are saying all 100 would visually perceive these clues exactly the same whether they were at the beginning of there shift, end of there shift, just came from a murder scene, just left a high speed chase, just found out their Uncle passed away, had a rough nights sleep, felt sick, etc. Even with the best training, everyone sees life’s and it’s events through slightly different eyes. Officers these days are so well trained, but I have a hard time believing every single one would perceived the existence of a "clue" or non existence of a "clue." In the end, it really is a moot point for me, there is zero chance I would submit to any of the test anyhow. I am never, ever disrespectful to any LEO, they have a hard enough job already. You can be respectful and exercise your rights at the same time.

[pcgizzmo]

I myself can walk the line, hop on one foot for 10 minutes, and even dance a mean two step. None of this matters, as I would not submit to this testing....ever. It is very subjective, as even though there are guidelines, it is up to the officer to interpret the information he is acquiring visually. I am pro LEO, but I am even more pro Constitution. Don’t be afraid to just say no.

So, would you submit to a blood test? If you say "no" then what happens? I assume you get a free ride to jail. I've never been in this situation but have always wondered what I would do and say. I have terrible balance and can't walk a straight line to save my life.

[steveincowtown]

I would say no. If the LEO thought he had enough evidence to get a warrant to draw blood, they would need to appear before a Judge to do this. I would much rather the LEO be standing in a front of a Judge without a video, then with one. I am certain that if one appeared intoxicated enough to warrant the LEO trying to get a warrant, that one would be detained during that period.

[Kythas]

Regarding the guy with Polio - during pre-screening you obtain info about the suspect's medical history. If you don't get the info, how would you know about the issue. The test also aren't validate for elderly or people 50lbs overweight.

Re: sjfcontrol

You can't walk a line and turn? Can you walk normally when not performing a test? Can you stand on a leg?

Are you elderly or overweight? Do you have any long term injuries? What do you mean when you say you "couldn't" do the tests...

The only reason I've seen that people can't even attempt it is they are extremely intoxicated. Most can do the test, even if exhibiting clues...

giga, how about this scenario?

My left knee is busted up from a motorcycle accident about 2 years ago. I have also had a total hip replacement of my right hip. In addition, I have Meniere's Disease (which I believe is a result of the Gulf War but the VA disagrees...but I digress). Meniere's Disease is a disease of the inner ear which can cause vertigo and equilibrium problems.

So, it's very difficult for me to normally stand on one leg - either one. If I walk in a line and turn fast, I might lose my balance. I can't for the life of me close my eyes and walk in a straight line (I always drift right). I even find myself brushing against the wall in my house while walking down the hallway and don't even realize I'm drifting - I think I'm walking straight until my right shoulder hits the wall.

This is part of the reason I don't drink at all anymore. I stopped drinking even before I got my CHL because I'm deathly afraid of getting pulled over after even one beer and, due to my medical issues, failing the tests. After all, how many cops are aware of Meniere's Disease? If someone you were testing told you they're off balance and can't perform the tests due to a disease of their inner ear, would you believe them?

To be honest, I'm afraid of getting pulled over and failing the tests even after drinking nothing but water.

[zero4o3]

Regarding the guy with Polio - during pre-screening you obtain info about the suspect's medical history. If you don't get the info, how would you know about the issue. The test also aren't validate for elderly or people 50lbs overweight.

Re: sjfcontrol

You can't walk a line and turn? Can you walk normally when not performing a test? Can you stand on a leg?

Are you elderly or overweight? Do you have any long term injuries? What do you mean when you say you "couldn't" do the tests...

The only reason I've seen that people can't even attempt it is they are extremely intoxicated. Most can do the test, even if exhibiting clues...

giga, how about this scenario?

My left knee is busted up from a motorcycle accident about 2 years ago. I have also had a total hip replacement of my right hip. In addition, I have Meniere's Disease (which I believe is a result of the Gulf War but the VA disagrees...but I digress). Meniere's Disease is a disease of the inner ear which can cause vertigo and equilibrium problems.

So, it's very difficult for me to normally stand on one leg - either one. If I walk in a line and turn fast, I might lose my balance. I can't for the life of me close my eyes and walk in a straight line (I always drift right). I even find myself brushing against the wall in my house while walking down the hallway and don't even realize I'm drifting - I think I'm walking straight until my right shoulder hits the wall.

This is part of the reason I don't drink at all anymore. I stopped drinking even before I got my CHL because I'm deathly afraid of getting pulled over after even one beer and, due to my medical issues, failing the tests. After all, how many cops are aware of Meniere's Disease? If someone you were testing told you they're off balance and can't perform the tests due to a disease of their inner ear, would you believe them?

To be honest, I'm afraid of getting pulled over and failing the tests even after drinking nothing but water.

from what I can tell, I think Giga's point is that if your upfront with medical conditions before you get to the point of the FST a reasonable person ( officers are people to) will acknowledge those concerns and use an alternative meathod to determine wether a person is "intoxicated" or not.

that being said not all people are reasonable is the point some of the other forum members seem to be trying to make.

[Keith B]

Regarding the guy with Polio - during pre-screening you obtain info about the suspect's medical history. If you don't get the info, how would you know about the issue. The test also aren't validate for elderly or people 50lbs overweight.

Re: sjfcontrol

You can't walk a line and turn? Can you walk normally when not performing a test? Can you stand on a leg?

Are you elderly or overweight? Do you have any long term injuries? What do you mean when you say you "couldn't" do the tests...

The only reason I've seen that people can't even attempt it is they are extremely intoxicated. Most can do the test, even if exhibiting clues...

giga, how about this scenario?

My left knee is busted up from a motorcycle accident about 2 years ago. I have also had a total hip replacement of my right hip. In addition, I have Meniere's Disease (which I believe is a result of the Gulf War but the VA disagrees...but I digress). Meniere's Disease is a disease of the inner ear which can cause vertigo and equilibrium problems.

So, it's very difficult for me to normally stand on one leg - either one. If I walk in a line and turn fast, I might lose my balance. I can't for the life of me close my eyes and walk in a straight line (I always drift right). I even find myself brushing against the wall in my house while walking down the hallway and don't even realize I'm drifting - I think I'm walking straight until my right shoulder hits the wall.

This is part of the reason I don't drink at all anymore. I stopped drinking even before I got my CHL because I'm deathly afraid of getting pulled over after even one beer and, due to my medical issues, failing the tests. After all, how many cops are aware of Meniere's Disease? If someone you were testing told you they're off balance and can't perform the tests due to a disease of their inner ear, would you believe them?

To be honest, I'm afraid of getting pulled over and failing the tests even after drinking nothing but water.

I am gonna jump in here for a minute. You have stated you have Meniere's and the effect it has on your ability to judge a strait line. Vertigo can be a serious issue when driving, as you lose perception of up and down and can impede your visionary acuteness. Doctors will tell you to NOT drink if you suffer from Meniere's as it can intensify the effect.

So, just like being overly tired and having one beer can cause you to not have normal use of your faculties, the same goes for your Meniere's and the other physical impediments. Without the alcohol, you may be fine, but just add a beer and you could be at the point you were overly impaired. As a pilot, we are limited on what medications we can take and fly with. Many of those are over-the-counter cold remedies that make me ineligible to fly. The same really goes for driving, operating heavy machinery (which a car is heavy machinery), etc.

Bottom line, when you have other ailments, take medication, etc., you need to know how it has affected YOUR abilities and to what extent. Any combination of things that impair you can cause you to not be able to pass a field sobriety test and be headed for the hoosegow if deemed incapable of safely operating the vehicle and DUI.

[Kythas]

I am gonna jump in here for a minute. You have stated you have Meniere's and the effect it has on your ability to judge a strait line. Vertigo can be a serious issue when driving, as you lose perception of up and down and can impede your visionary acuteness. Doctors will tell you to NOT drink if you suffer from Meniere's as it can intensify the effect.

So, just like being overly tired and having one beer can cause you to not have normal use of your faculties, the same goes for your Meniere's and the other physical impediments. Without the alcohol, you may be fine, but just add a beer and you could be at the point you were overly impaired. As a pilot, we are limited on what medications we can take and fly with. Many of those are over-the-counter cold remedies that make me ineligible to fly. The same really goes for driving, operating heavy machinery (which a car is heavy machinery), etc.

Bottom line, when you have other ailments, take medication, etc., you need to know how it has affected YOUR abilities and to what extent. Any combination of things that impair you can cause you to not be able to pass a field sobriety test and be headed for the hoosegow if deemed incapable of safely operating the vehicle and DUI.

Which is why I don't drink, even though my case of Meniere's is the mildest my doctor has ever seen. My main issues with it are the tinnitus and migraines. Still, I'd never heard of the disease before being diagnosed. Since only about 2% of the population has this disease I'd bet that most cops have never heard of it. I would fully understand if a police officer didn't believe me if I told him I couldn't walk a straight line due to an inner ear disease.

I stopped drinking years ago mainly because I have no desire to wear silver bracelets. I'm not big on jewelry, you see.

[WildBill]

Which is why I don't drink, even though my case of Meniere's is the mildest my doctor has ever seen. My main issues with it are the tinnitus and migraines. Still, I'd never heard of the disease before being diagnosed. Since only about 2% of the population has this disease I'd bet that most cops have never heard of it. I would fully understand if a police officer didn't believe me if I told him I couldn't walk a straight line due to an inner ear disease.

I stopped drinking years ago mainly because I have no desire to wear silver bracelets. I'm not big on jewelry, you see.

One of the most famous cases of Meniere's is astronaut Alan Shepard who was grounded for 5 years until he had surgery.