"Small of the Back" holster?

[jamisjockey]

I've got a number of objections to SOB. I've tried it and decided it wasn't the best for me.

1) Possibility of a fall injuring your back
2) Gunfights aren't pretty things. Lie flat on your back with someone trying to pummel you and try drawing from SOB.
3) Where is the most natural spot to draw from? SOB takes extra movements to get to.
4) You pretty much can't bend over without your cover garment riding up and showing it off.

Not a fan, at all.

[Excaliber]

I've got a number of objections to SOB. I've tried it and decided it wasn't the best for me.

1) Possibility of a fall injuring your back
2) Gunfights aren't pretty things. Lie flat on your back with someone trying to pummel you and try drawing from SOB.
3) Where is the most natural spot to draw from? SOB takes extra movements to get to.
4) You pretty much can't bend over without your cover garment riding up and showing it off.

Not a fan, at all.

Add:

5) Try defending against a gun grab attempt.
6) You'll need a convincing explanation for the resounding "thunk" sound that accompanies your seating on wooden benches like those in restaurants, churches, etc. (this can happen with other holster types too, particularly with large guns carried OWB at 3:00.)
7) The gun in this position pokes out like an unnatural growth through the opening above the seat in the backs of many types of chairs

[PappaGun]

I've got a number of objections to SOB. I've tried it and decided it wasn't the best for me.

1) Possibility of a fall injuring your back
2) Gunfights aren't pretty things. Lie flat on your back with someone trying to pummel you and try drawing from SOB.
3) Where is the most natural spot to draw from? SOB takes extra movements to get to.
4) You pretty much can't bend over without your cover garment riding up and showing it off.

Not a fan, at all.

Add:

5) Try defending against a gun grab attempt.
6) You'll need a convincing explanation for the resounding "thunk" sound that accompanies your seating on wooden benches like those in restaurants, churches, etc. (this can happen with other holster types too, particularly with large guns carried OWB at 3:00.)
7) The gun in this position pokes out like an unnatural growth through the opening above the seat in the backs of many types of chairs

Pretty funny stuff.

1) I fell off a horse once with my gun at 3:00 and boy did it hurt. I limped for days.
How often do you fall down, really? Flat on your back?
2) Same could be said with any gun carry technique. Some fights could lead to innacessability of weapon.
It depends, and it is unpredicatable.
3) Maybe. I'm a lefty. When the BG thinks I'm going for my wallet in my right pocket, I'm coming out with some thing else.
(I shoot righty, write lefty, and my wallet is in my left pocket.)
4) I felt that way about OWB. Either way, OWB or SOB, I don't do much bending over cuz it'll get exposed.
5) If concealed properly, why would this be any more of a problem?
6) I'm not a church goer.
There have been other threads about explaining yourself if your "found out". Most seemed to think that no explanation was needed. It's only a thunk, I dunno. Maybe a church mouse?
Why is this any different?
7) Maybe one should not try to SOB full size 1911?
My G27 conceals pretty well SOB.

Just providing some answers.
Not trying to be (too much) of a wise alleck.
As I said before, some times it is my preferred my method, some times I carry other ways.
Carrying SOB is by far better than not carrying at all.

[Skiprr]

Carrying SOB is by far better than not carrying at all.

I don't think that's the issue. Any measure of preparedness is better than none at all, but it's a continuum. Carrying a four-year-old, half-ounce, generic pepper spray may be better than no extra defensive tool at all. But if given the choice, why not carry a more effective solution?

My personal opinion, stated often, is that small-of-back carry is a very poor tactical choice: the worst, in fact, of any waist-carry position. And my arguments never included the fall and spinal injury possibility because that is often the first one, and sometimes only one, presented. I won't describe my reasons here because I've already linked in this Topic to posts where I went into some detail.

My best advice is to take an advanced handgun class from a credible instructor that focuses on close-quarters defense: those situations where danger is less than 10 feet from you before you can realistically identify it as a threat. The best statistics we have say that, outside of a home or business, these are the distances at which innocent people are most likely to encounter violence. In most urban environments, the VCAs simply do not stand 10 yards away and threaten you with a weapon. It isn't in their best interest; ergo, those aren't the distances in which they operate. And it also isn't uncommon for them to operate in pairs.

If you can find a class that includes force-on-force drills with Airsoft guns, all the better. It still can't mirror real-world situations, but it's about as good as we can safely get it. If the instructor will allow you to use small-of-back--and it's a big "if"--I believe you'll come away understanding that it's a weak position with little practical benefit.

I said I wouldn't delineate any specific points against small-of-back, but that last paragraph describes one that is seldom mentioned: training. You can practice dry-fire in your own home. If you're lucky enough to own land that's large enough to afford you your own shooting range, you can practice live-fire there. But I know of no nationally-recognized instructor that will allow small-of-back in any of their live-fire courses. No NRA instruction will allow it. No public shooting ranges will allow a draw from small-of-back, and my bet is that precious few, if any, private ranges will allow it. I know I've never been to one. No competition shooting will allow it, not IDPA or USPSA.

That no nationally-recognized firearms instructor teaches small-of-back carry as a viable choice should be a strong message. That you can't practice it at public or private ranges, or in practical shooting competitions should be a limitation worth considering.

In a sudden and violent encounter, you simply will not know how skilled or capable your attacker may be. If you can't practice live-fire from small-of-back, and you can't get professional instruction on how best to use it, how will you ever hope to be good enough to come out on top of the average, jittery, meth-head, much less an experienced felon?

[PappaGun]

Skiprr,
I hear what you're saying.
And I agree that tactically SOB is a poor choice when other options are available.
But I don't think it's as poor as often opined.
Personally, I think pocket and ankle carry make accessing the weapon the most difficult.
Just my opinion, that's all.
I don't shoot competitively, but in any range, class, competition etc., it would indeed be a very poor choice
as there would be no way to draw with out sweeping your fellow shooter.

[Excaliber]

I've got a number of objections to SOB. I've tried it and decided it wasn't the best for me.

1) Possibility of a fall injuring your back
2) Gunfights aren't pretty things. Lie flat on your back with someone trying to pummel you and try drawing from SOB.
3) Where is the most natural spot to draw from? SOB takes extra movements to get to.
4) You pretty much can't bend over without your cover garment riding up and showing it off.

Not a fan, at all.

Add:

5) Try defending against a gun grab attempt.
6) You'll need a convincing explanation for the resounding "thunk" sound that accompanies your seating on wooden benches like those in restaurants, churches, etc. (this can happen with other holster types too, particularly with large guns carried OWB at 3:00.)
7) The gun in this position pokes out like an unnatural growth through the opening above the seat in the backs of many types of chairs

Pretty funny stuff.

1) I fell off a horse once with my gun at 3:00 and boy did it hurt. I limped for days.
How often do you fall down, really? Flat on your back?
2) Same could be said with any gun carry technique. Some fights could lead to innacessability of weapon.
It depends, and it is unpredicatable.
3) Maybe. I'm a lefty. When the BG thinks I'm going for my wallet in my right pocket, I'm coming out with some thing else.
(I shoot righty, write lefty, and my wallet is in my left pocket.)
4) I felt that way about OWB. Either way, OWB or SOB, I don't do much bending over cuz it'll get exposed.
5) If concealed properly, why would this be any more of a problem?
6) I'm not a church goer.
There have been other threads about explaining yourself if your "found out". Most seemed to think that no explanation was needed. It's only a thunk, I dunno. Maybe a church mouse?
Why is this any different?
7) Maybe one should not try to SOB full size 1911?
My G27 conceals pretty well SOB.

Just providing some answers.
Not trying to be (too much) of a wise alleck.
As I said before, some times it is my preferred my method, some times I carry other ways.
Carrying SOB is by far better than not carrying at all.

The amusement value of those considerations varies in inverse proportion to one's real world experience with the operation of Murphy's law as it pertains to the carrying of concealed handguns.

If you fall on your back while carrying this way, walking away at all would mean it's your lucky day, and not walking away that day or perhaps ever again wouldn't leave me smiling.

The prudent man thinks long and hard before adopting a carry method that is rarely used by the folks who walk into danger for a living. If it was really all that great, they'd be doing it too.

[jamisjockey]

Skiprr,
I hear what you're saying.
And I agree that tactically SOB is a poor choice when other options are available.
But I don't think it's as poor as often opined.
Personally, I think pocket and ankle carry make accessing the weapon the most difficult.
Just my opinion, that's all.
I don't shoot competitively, but in any range, class, competition etc., it would indeed be a very poor choice
as there would be no way to draw with out sweeping your fellow shooter.

I'm not a fan of either of those forms of carry except for a backup gun, either.

The prudent man thinks long and hard before adopting a carry method that is rarely used by the folks who walk into danger for a living. If it was really all that great, they'd be doing it too.

Times a billion.

[Keith]

Just saw a show on this the other night. Its a bad idea due to if you have to grab it the bad guy can very easily lock your arm behind you because you have no strength in this postion. OWB for me love the Serpa holster. Locked in and have to use trigger finger to release. Teaches you trigger control.

If this has already been talked about sorry. I didnt read all the posts.

[rmr1923]

Just saw a show on this the other night. Its a bad idea due to if you have to grab it the bad guy can very easily lock your arm behind you because you have no strength in this postion. OWB for me love the Serpa holster. Locked in and have to use trigger finger to release. Teaches you trigger control.

If this has already been talked about sorry. I didnt read all the posts.

i've got a Serpa holster as well, don't have my CHL yet but i've worn it in the house just to get a feel for it and worn it around the ranch a couple times and it's very comfortable. after a while i forgot i had a gun on me, and i was surprised at how easily i could conceal the gun at 4:00 with even a light jacket. i really like the lock feature, after i draw from the holster my trigger finger is already in its natural "resting place" above the trigger, and i like the idea that if i were to get in a scuffle with someone, it would make it more difficult for them to take my gun and use it on me.

[XDm4life]

"tactically" sob is bad choice?

not sure about this one....

I wear a "Horseshoe SOB2" and I haven't had any problems. Granted I've only been carrying for a few weeks but I do un holster while driving and re holster before exiting the vehicle. I find it just as easy to un holster in a SD situation as a pancake....

You want my wallet, sure let me get it for ya!


K

[Skiprr]

"tactically" sob is bad choice?

Welcome to the Forum!

I suggest you read the posts in this Topic, as well as links referenced in those posts.

Yes, small-of-back carry is a very poor tactical choice.

PM me if you want more info.

[carlson1]

This carry could possibly cripple you for life.

[Excaliber]

This carry could possibly cripple you for life.

Some folks learn from the mistakes and wisdom of others. They figure there's little reason to repeat the same old mistakes when so many new and creative ones are still available.

Some folks learn only through experience, which is defined as "what you get when you don't get what you want," even when that experience is the same as that of many others who got the same result by doing the same things before. These are the folks who expect that if you do the same thing over and over often enough, at some point the rules of the universe will change and they'll get a different result.

The lesson to be learned about the crippling potential of SOB holsters, as repeatedly cautioned against here by some of our members with decades of professional gun carry and use experience, is a harsh and sometimes permanent one. However, it is most assuredly convincing to even the most skeptical when it happens. That makes it a sad event, but not a total loss, because the fresh repetition of what has happened before can serve as a renewed warning to others. It's a lot like the revelation folks have that unlocked doors can facilitate a home invasion after exactly that happens next door, when all the prior incidents they read about didn't make enough of an impression to change their practices at all.

With all the ice on the ground this week, we may be seeing a post from a new real world SOB holster experience any day now. Stay tuned.

[mgood]

There is a tendency to sweep your own body with the muzzle as you draw from an SOB holster too. You have to train yourself to pull it out, point it down, bring it around and up. This can be learned with practice, but it does take a little more dedication to drawing practice than some other means of carry.
I'm sure there are lots of gunfights where holes are blasted into the floor at the shooter's feet because human nature is to start pulling the trigger as soon as you clear leather. If you start shooting while drawing from an SOB, you stand a very good chance of shooting yourself.

I'm not telling anyone not to get one. Mas Ayoob is a big fan of them and I'm a big fan of his. I'm just saying you need to be aware of the disadvantages (of any mode of carry) and train to overcome them.

[PappaGun]

...Some folks learn from the mistakes and wisdom of others. They figure there's little reason to repeat the same old mistakes when so many new and creative ones are still available...

I never make the same mistake twice.

I make a new mistake for the first time often.