RoyGBiv wrote:In NC, drawing to fire was required for the (timed) test. Although drawing from concealment was not.
In TX, nobody in my class owned a holster except me and the instructor.
My NC class didn't have to draw, although I had a holster to keep my gun in anyway.
From my research, TX does not even require armed security training courses to draw from a holster
You are in deep trouble if you let the sitiuation get to the point it's a quick draw contest. That's the stuff of movies and dime novels. The old saying, "A gun in the hand beats two in the holster" is very true. OK, so I just made it up but, it is true!.
"To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Texas and Louisiana CHL Instructor, NRA Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Personal Protection and Refuse To Be A Victim Instructor
wally775 wrote:I do think holsters, draw and carry options should be discussed in the classroom but have
no place on the range
wally775 wrote:I do think the OP was talking about the CHL course and not the
Instructor course at DPS.
...
My point is Instructor type qualification is different than student. The same qualification and still different.
It is “mostly” up to the instructor, with safety in mind, to determine exactly how to run the qualification for his class. With safety in mind and following DPS guidelines I would agree on whatever actual method the Instructor used.
I agree with your answer to the specific question of drawing, but think the above lines need clarification. Admin rule 6.11(a) states:
The proficiency demonstration course will be the same for both instructors and license applications.
The logistics of the qualification will naturally vary based on the environment in which the shooting is done and the instructor's preference. The key is that those differences do not change the difficulty of the qualification by introducing new aspects like drawing, as the OP mentioned and you agreed.
dnavaille wrote:Did your instructor teach how to draw from a holster and require you to draw from the holster during the shooting qualification?
I agree with the safety comment, especially when you have people carrying in fanny packs, pockets, and purses.
Also, there are enough students who come out of class not knowing the basics of the CHL laws, or who say the class didn't teach conflict resolution, or other gaps, that I think adding more stuff to the syllabus would only result in more new CHLs who are just plain wrong about where and when they can carry, and the laws around force and deadly force.
I am in a major metro area, and had any of my instructors during any of my very well-attended classes announced that range qualification was going to be from the draw, I believe I would have excused myself from further participation in that particular class. Have you observed some of what attends these classes?
Pacifist wrote:I am in a major metro area, and had any of my instructors during any of my very well-attended classes announced that range qualification was going to be from the draw, I believe I would have excused myself from further participation in that particular class. Have you observed some of what attends these classes?
Pacifist wrote:I am in a major metro area, and had any of my instructors during any of my very well-attended classes announced that range qualification was going to be from the draw, I believe I would have excused myself from further participation in that particular class. Have you observed some of what attends these classes?
Like the 8,200 of them that are members here?
With 400,000 or so CHL holders roaming about, I would venture to say that few, very few, of those to whom I refer are members here, but you never know.
If these students can not draw safely and fire on the range do you think they will be able to draw and fire safely while carrying on the street? The gun will not be in their hand or on a bench when their life is in imminent danger justifying the use of deadly force. Does this knowledge come magically with the CHL in the mail?
So there are at least 390,000 CHLs that can not safely draw from a holster?
Reading the posts I see that it is DPS that does not require showing proficiency in drawing from a holster. I am trying to understand the logic of this situation.
I am an NRA instructor and Louisiana CHL Instructor #43 have been carrying for over 25 years. I am a Reserve Deputy with the Sherriff's Dept back home and have worked as a Range Safety Officer with that department for over 15 years and coached a couple of the departments instructors.
RoyGBiv wrote:In NC, drawing to fire was required for the (timed) test. Although drawing from concealment was not.
In TX, nobody in my class owned a holster except me and the instructor.
My NC class didn't have to draw, although I had a holster to keep my gun in anyway.
From my research, TX does not even require armed security training courses to draw from a holster
So they are victims waiting to be shot?
You are in deep trouble if you let the situation get to the point it's a quick draw contest. That's the stuff of movies and dime novels. The old saying, "A gun in the hand beats two in the holster" is very true. OK, so I just made it up but, it is true!.
This is not true. There is a Mexican that give demonstrations to LEOs where he draws from a buttoned up shirt and fires before you can blink your eye. Action is faster than reaction, practice is the key.
Have you ever seen Jerry Mickulec shoot? Ask him and he will tell you that all you need is practice.
Does the Bad Guy make an appointment at high noon and meet you on Main Street ?
In the real world you have about 10 seconds or less to identify a deadly threat and take appropriate steps to solve the problem.
dnavaille wrote:If these students can not draw safely and fire on the range do you think they will be able to draw and fire safely while carrying on the street? The gun will not be in their hand or on a bench when their life is in imminent danger justifying the use of deadly force. Does this knowledge come magically with the CHL in the mail?
My hope would be that this knowledge comes during qualified specific instruction and practice, neither of which is appropriate during a CHL course.
dnavaille wrote:So there are at least 390,000 CHLs that can not safely draw from a holster?
I can't really be sure as I have yet to observe them all.
The problem is not whether the student has a holster or not, the problem is the course of fire. It is a waste of time and ammo and should be dispensed with. It certainly does not test a student's gun handling capability; at most it tests a student's ability to be coached thru fifty rounds and getting most of them on a large sheet of paper.
By all means, everyone should go get some decent training, but am very leery of the State requiring or being involved determining what this is. The CHL is s a legal document, if it has to exist, then the course should stick to the laws and their application, not gun handling.
BTW, my wife and I both used our holsters during our (different) courses, and it was the safest place for our guns between firing events. Bragging alert: I was inordinately pleased while observing my wife (who I trained) during her shooting portion, when the instructor came by and commented that she had the best gun handling skills in the class.
But if folks have issues with people drawing from a holster at a (relatively) safe location like a range (positive back stop, people not standing down range, etc.) then how is it a good idea to have them doing the Wally Walk and potentially doing so?
NOT saying the holster draw should be added to the COF. But if you don't trust them to draw from a holster at the range, you can't trust them to do so out in the Wild Wild West either.
“Public safety is always the first cry of the tyrant.” - Lord Gladstone
The purpose of the shooting portion of the Texas CHL course is to exhibit a minimum level of shooting proficiency. It's been years since I've seen the minimum TCLEOSE firearms proficiency requirement for LEO's, but it is/was basically the same as the range portion of the CHL class, except for weak hand shooting and I think one timed reload. Most agencies and departments establish their own requirements that are more demanding. When the CHL statute passed, there was a real concern that DPS could/would establish an unreasonably difficult course, so DPS was advised that the standard should be no more difficult than the TCLEOSE standard.
I am a strong believer in practice and advanced training, but I would never support a more stringent CHL proficiency exam. A very small percentage of us will ever have to shoot in self-defense (out of uniform anyway) and an even smaller percentage of those who do will have had any advanced training. Nevertheless, these untrained citizens seem to be doing a great job defending themselves with handguns, especially here in Houston in the last several months. Not all win the fight but most do and I don't recall a single "friendly fire" casualty in recent years. If these folks had to draw quickly from a holster, purse, fanny pack, pocket, or anything else, they must have done an adequate job.
In at least one of my CHL Instructor renewal classes we were told not to allow students to shoot from the holster. I strongly encourage my students to bring a holster if they have one simply because it's the easiest way to move safely between firing lines. We don't shoot from a holstered position.
The number and percentage of gun fights that require a quick shot from the holster are extremely rare for civilians and only slightly less rare for LEOs. When a COP has to do it, odds are it is a traffic stop gone bad. If a citizen has to draw and fire quickly, then it's likely he/she will be in a deserted area, not in the middle of Wal-Mart or the mall.
Again, we should all encourage advanced training and practice, but let's not overstate the need.
