Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

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Excaliber
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Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#1

Post by Excaliber »

WARNING: Long Post

The time for my annual LEOSA requalification had rolled around again, so I brought my S&W revolver and Kimber .45 over to Greybeard's Denton County Sports Association range in Argyle to take care of that chore.

I usually qualify with the 4" Kimber Pro Carry that is my most frequent EDC, but I had just changed the recoil spring and hadn't tested it yet, and it's my practice not to use a gun I've modified for either carry or qualification until I have verified proper function with a couple of boxes of ammo.

I know changing one Kimber original spring for another of the same specs shouldn't affect anything, but I'm not one to take such things for granted, so I brought along a 5" Kimber to maintain the same operational parameters during the qualification run. I hadn't made any changes to that gun other than swapping out the hard grips for a nice comfortable set of Hogue wraparound rubber grips with finger grooves that felt really good in the hand. I had only shot it once or twice since then, but figured I was good to go because I hadn't changed anything that could affect operation. That turned out to be an unwarranted assumption.

Greybeard gave me the signal for the first shot on the first target with the .45. When I pressed the trigger it didn't move and the hammer didn't fall.

Not good. :grumble

A quick check showed the slide was in battery, the thumb safety was off (I rest my strong hand thumb on it during shooting to make sure it stays that way), and the grip safety appeared to be depressed.

While I was puzzling over the cause, Greybeard dutifully confiscated one of my remaining rounds to make sure I didn't squeak in a shot I wasn't entitled to somewhere, guaranteeing the only point I've lost in a qualification in years.

I checked the gun over and couldn't find anything wrong with it, and finished the qualification with no further issues. I then ran a bunch of mixed ammo through the Pro Carry to test the recoil spring, and it worked just fine.

The incident bugged me that night and all the next day, and by the time I went to clean the guns about 24 hours later I had determined that grip safety operation was the most likely culprit. Again, I couldn't find any mechanical issue with it. I compared its operation to the function of the one on the 4" gun which was equipped with a thin set of wraparound Crimson Trace Lasergrips, and they appeared identical. Then I tried picking up each unloaded gun alternately a few times and dry firing.

Sure enough, after a few tries, I duplicated the issue on the 5". I didn't move anything and examined everything as it was right then. The grip safety appeared to be depressed, but by some infinitesimal fraction of an inch it wasn't down far enough to fully clear the movement of the trigger bar. Why? Because the extra thick rubber grips and thick finger grooves on the front strap had opened up the way my hand grips the gun just enough to make proper operation of the grip safety unreliable.

When I carefully adjusted my grip to make the grip safety work, I discovered that when the grip safety was depressed enough to allow the gun to fire, it wasn't down the full distance of its travel and there was no margin for error at all. The size and shape of the grips combined with the size and shape of my hand was simply a bad combination.

To verify that was the problem, I swapped out the finger groove grips for a flat set of hard rubber ones and did the alternating gun dry fire exercise again. Using repeated hasty grips, I couldn't get the problem to recur.

Lesson learned:

Do repeated dry fire and range testing after any change to a gun before trusting it for carry or qualification, even if you can't see any way that it could affect operation.

Although this experience irked me no end because of the lost point (I'm a perfectionist), I was very happy it had occurred where it did.

Failure to get off a shot you intend to fire is :oops: on the range.

That sure beats :banghead: on the street.
Excaliber

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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#2

Post by RoyGBiv »

Excellent advice... :tiphat:
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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#3

Post by Abraham »

Excaliber,

Please, consider getting a Glock or a Sig or choose one of the many modern designed pistols available on the market.

1911's belong in a museum along with the other beautiful and ancient firearms like wheellocks, flintlocks and such...

No doubt 1911's are splendid looking, but so are swords.

Hhmmm, maybe trade in your 1911 for a good Japanese katana, they never fail.
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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#4

Post by Excaliber »

Abraham wrote:Excaliber,

Please, consider getting a Glock or a Sig or choose one of the many modern designed pistols available on the market.

1911's belong in a museum along with the other beautiful and ancient firearms like wheellocks, flintlocks and such...

No doubt 1911's are splendid looking, but so are swords.

Hhmmm, maybe trade in your 1911 for a good Japanese katana, they never fail.
Interesting comment - I have a Katana. She's my 105 lb. German Shepherd Dog. :lol:

I've owned and extensively carried several Glocks and fired a number of Sigs. The fat grips and long, relatively heavy Sig trigger pull, and the irritating grooved trigger safety lever on the Glock are not for me, although both are fine guns and if I had to use either one I would not consider myself disadvantaged.

Glocks and Sigs are not foolproof. If you have a chance, look up some of New York City PD's annual firearms discharge reports and read about some of the ways you can manage to get a Glock to do what it's not supposed to do.

There are a couple of good reasons why many special forces operators and elite police teams choose the time proven 1911 design over all others. While this would not be a good choice for everyone, it is the one I make for times when my life might be on the line and I don't make that decision lightly.

The surprise failure to fire incident I described was clearly my fault because I installed one of the many thousands of available customizing options on my pistol and didn't thoroughly wring it out on the range before using it for score.

My bad - not the gun's.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.

DONT TREAD ON ME

Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#5

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

Abraham wrote:Excaliber,

Please, consider getting a Glock or a Sig or choose one of the many modern designed pistols available on the market.

1911's belong in a museum along with the other beautiful and ancient firearms like wheellocks, flintlocks and such...

No doubt 1911's are splendid looking, but so are swords.

Hhmmm, maybe trade in your 1911 for a good Japanese katana, they never fail.
Real men carry real guns and leave the plastic toys to the boys :evil2:

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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#6

Post by Abraham »

Excaliber,

As your response proved, you took my post for the tongue in cheek it was...

No doubt, there are no foolproof firearms as yet made and your customizing was the culprit for the problem you experienced - Obviously not the guns fault.

I've owned and shot a number of different 1911's and experienced many FTF or FTE which ultimately drove me to buy a more modern designed pistol. With them, I've not experienced any of the problems plaguing the 1911's I shot. Overall, my experience with the 1911 is dismal regarding dependability.

Perhaps, not all the 1911's I shot were to blame for their problems. That is, maybe they weren't properly cleaned, lubed or who knows what...? The ones I've owned though, were properly cared for and I still had many problems.

How many tales regarding a lack of dependability in 1911's do we read of on this forum?

The answer: Far, far in excess of modern day pistol design.
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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#7

Post by Excaliber »

Abraham wrote:Excaliber,

As your response proved, you took my post for the tongue in cheek it was...

No doubt, there are no foolproof firearms as yet made and your customizing was the culprit for the problem you experienced - Obviously not the guns fault.

I've owned and shot a number of different 1911's and experienced many FTF or FTE which ultimately drove me to buy a more modern designed pistol. With them, I've not experienced any of the problems plaguing the 1911's I shot. Overall, my experience with the 1911 is dismal regarding dependability.

Perhaps, not all the 1911's I shot were to blame for their problems. That is, maybe they weren't properly cleaned, lubed or who knows what...? The ones I've owned though, were properly cared for and I still had many problems.

How many tales regarding a lack of dependability in 1911's do we read of on this forum?

The answer: Far, far in excess of modern day pistol design.
Well, there are 1911's and there are 1911's.

Those manufactured before the CNC machining was refined have much more variability in their tolerances than newer ones.

Some new guns will still have problems - witness the recalls we've seen from virtually every major manufacturer. I had a Glock with a frame issue that required construction of a new frame. No brand is immune.

My 1911's are not at all finicky - they eat anything I feed them, and are not fussy about just how and what I lube them with - any reasonable level of care works just fine.

If I were one of those folks who wants to see if he can shoot thousands of rounds without cleaning or lubrication and leave the gun in the drawer for years until the 3 AM moment when he really needs it, I'd go with a Glock which is more tolerant of this level of maintenance negligence.

Since I'm not one of those folks, I'll stick with my 1911 which has been saving good guys' lives by stopping bad guys for a century - a claim none of the others can make.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#8

Post by Abraham »

Excaliber,

"before the CNC machining was refined" - This is something I'm completely ignorant about...

All the 1911's I have experience with were pre-CNC - thus/maybe that was their major malfunction. (apologies to "Full Metal Jacket", the movie)

You may have started a new interest in me to own a post-CNC 1911, if they have at least equal dependability of say a Glock, Sig, etal.

However, I've read more than one thread regarding post-CNC Kimbers and other 1911 manufacturers regarding a variety of problems requiring sending back to the factory or having to change out springs regularly or fill in the blank... No doubt, as you pointed out, recalls and other problems plague all gun makers, but it seems (and maybe I'm wrong, at least I hope so...) that there's a greater number of problems, comparative to more modern firearm design, even with post-CNC 1911 pistols in general.

I haven't a clue where I can find out how post-CNC 1911's problems can be compared to so called "Tupperware guns"? That is, if the overall number and kind of problems essentially stack up equally or approximately equally between them...?

The chief reason, certainly not beauty, for my now owning Glocks is their inherent overall dependability. If I had the same confidence in a 1911 I'd one or more...

Perhaps, this is now so, but the 1911 threads referencing problems discourage me.

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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#9

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

Abraham,

I cannot speak for all 1911 makers out there but I own a Springfield 1911. It is my first 1911 and I have only had it for about 1.5 years. I bought it used. It started out as a GI model but I wanted something different so I "customized" it to me (mainly added more modern external parts). Prior to the new parts I would get a FTF every once in a while. Not knowing much about 1911s I couldn't figure out why. I would take it apart and everything seemed fine.

I took it into Alex Hamilton (who is a GREAT guy and does AMAZING work) to put some sights on it and some other parts. I told him to throw a new spring in there just for safe measure since it was used and I wasn't sure how many rounds had been fired by the previous owner. When I went to pick it up he asked me if I ever had any problems with it. So, I told him every once in a while it would FTF. He then explained why it did that.

Apparently the dingbat that had it prior to me cut the recoil spring down. I have no idea why. Mr. Hamilton showed me the spring I had and the one he put in. VERY different in length.

Since then I have put all kinds of ammo through that gun and it has eaten everything I put in there. Not a single FTF/FTE. It is extremely reliable. When I am home I carry it everyday and trust it with my life and my family's lives.
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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#10

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Excaliber, that is an interesting experience, as I have those same Hogue wraparound grips on my Kimber Ultra. I have not had the issue you mention, but I have been thinking about going back to the original grips anyway, or possibly a CT grip set. The Hogue grips definitely make the pistol fatter in the hand, and while this doesn't make it any harder to shoot, it does actually make it a tiny bit less concealable. With the original grips, the pistol was quite slim. Not so much anymore.

My reason for using the Hogue grips is that I am left handed, and the front strap of the stainless Ultra is very slick. So maintaining a good grip while shooting is harder because the gun wants to slip in my strong hand under recoil. I wouldn't be so bothered by this, but it causes my wedding band to come in contact with the metal of the front strap, and it leaves a small mark there. So I'm going to put the original flat rubber grips back on, and try to make some grip tape work on that front strap.
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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#11

Post by G.A. Heath »

In the years I have owned guns I can say that all of the malfunctions added together that my 1911s have had within the first 100 rounds after taking it out of the box is exactly equal to the number of malfunctions my brand new Glock has had. Interestingly enough it was the same issue for both guns, the recoil spring was too heavy. This is a known issue for the 4th gen 9mm Glocks so all you have to do is call Glock and they will ship you the correct one as soon as they can. The only down side is that when I pay for a new gun I think it should work out of the box, I guess my 1911s, XDs, Sigs, and other handguns have spoiled me.
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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#12

Post by Excaliber »

The Annoyed Man wrote:Excaliber, that is an interesting experience, as I have those same Hogue wraparound grips on my Kimber Ultra. I have not had the issue you mention, but I have been thinking about going back to the original grips anyway, or possibly a CT grip set. The Hogue grips definitely make the pistol fatter in the hand, and while this doesn't make it any harder to shoot, it does actually make it a tiny bit less concealable. With the original grips, the pistol was quite slim. Not so much anymore.

My reason for using the Hogue grips is that I am left handed, and the front strap of the stainless Ultra is very slick. So maintaining a good grip while shooting is harder because the gun wants to slip in my strong hand under recoil. I wouldn't be so bothered by this, but it causes my wedding band to come in contact with the metal of the front strap, and it leaves a small mark there. So I'm going to put the original flat rubber grips back on, and try to make some grip tape work on that front strap.
You might try this Pachmayr product. It's a wraparound design but much flatter than the Hogues I used. I've used them on other guns and liked them a lot. The only reason I'm not using them on my 5" Kimber Eclipse II is because the front strap is very nicely checkered and I don't need anything else to prevent slipping there.

I don't want to imply that there's anything wrong with the Hogue grips - there isn't. They are thick and do have a marginal impact on concealability, but that hasn't been an issue for me. The problem I experienced is a product of the unique combination of those grips, my thumb on the safety technique, and the individual characteristics of my hand. If my hand had just a little more meat in the right place, the grip safety would depress just fine. It's just easier to replace the grips than it is to replace my hand.
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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#13

Post by Excaliber »

Abraham wrote:Excaliber,

"before the CNC machining was refined" - This is something I'm completely ignorant about...

All the 1911's I have experience with were pre-CNC - thus/maybe that was their major malfunction. (apologies to "Full Metal Jacket", the movie)

You may have started a new interest in me to own a post-CNC 1911, if they have at least equal dependability of say a Glock, Sig, etal.

However, I've read more than one thread regarding post-CNC Kimbers and other 1911 manufacturers regarding a variety of problems requiring sending back to the factory or having to change out springs regularly or fill in the blank... No doubt, as you pointed out, recalls and other problems plague all gun makers, but it seems (and maybe I'm wrong, at least I hope so...) that there's a greater number of problems, comparative to more modern firearm design, even with post-CNC 1911 pistols in general.

I haven't a clue where I can find out how post-CNC 1911's problems can be compared to so called "Tupperware guns"? That is, if the overall number and kind of problems essentially stack up equally or approximately equally between them...?

The chief reason, certainly not beauty, for my now owning Glocks is their inherent overall dependability. If I had the same confidence in a 1911 I'd one or more...

Perhaps, this is now so, but the 1911 threads referencing problems discourage me.
CNC stands for "computer number controlled" machining processes. These machines use computerized instructors to perform multiple operations on a part very rapidly without the need for an operator to touch it between steps, and can execute those operations with much greater precision than is possible with manually controlled techniques.

Prior to CNC machining, guns were roughly machined and parts were final fitted by hand. Tolerances were relatively large to accommodate this process. With CNC machining, tolerances are much closer and there is far less need for the hand fitting that introduces variances in the finished product. This means guns can come off the line with fewer faults and with more features like lowered ejection ports, high cuts at the top of the front strap, beveled magazine wells, and other similar items as part of the regular manufacturing process and without the expensive post purchase customization previously required to get these features. This is the thing that catapulted Kimber to the top of the volume 1911 producers and dropped Colt into the has beens.

Glocks are designed with tolerances that require no hand fitting at all. In fact, you can disassemble a bunch of those guns and reassemble them with parts randomly selected from the batch and they will all work just fine. They are incredibly durable and all around fine guns if you are OK with their thick grips, odd grip angle and the characteristics of their triggers.

My personal taste finds those things not to my liking, but that's no knock on the guns. I just have a strong preference for the 1911 grip angle and trigger. Both feel very natural to me and the grip angle makes the gun point just where I want it without having to think about it. I can hit what I want to hit with reliability and consistency, so it works for me and there's enough history behind it that I'm confident it won't let me down when it counts.
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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#14

Post by KFP »

Excaliber do you have a palm swell on your grip safety?
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Re: Live & Learn - Grip Change Affects Function

#15

Post by Excaliber »

KFP wrote:Excaliber do you have a palm swell on your grip safety?
Yes.

I put an aftermarket Kimber or Wilson part with the "hump" on all my 1911's to make the grip safety operation more positive. It worked fine until I changed the grips.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
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