Daughter got scolded

[mgood]

I agree 100% with what Keith B said.
I would add that the bleed out can be slow. Even a shot through the heart, with just about any handgun caliber, while probably fatal, may not incapacitate them for a few seconds to a few minutes. Even a few seconds can be a long time in a fight, plenty of time for them to shoot or stab you if the attacker is determined. That's why people say to keep shooting until the threat is over. Don't stop just because you know you made a good hit.

[Divided Attention]

I think it was even here that I heard "The gun in your hand (or on your person) is better than the one at home when you need it". I have decided that guns are like trucks - everyone has their favorite brand, model etc. and we can argue through eternity which is best and why. JMPHO but to carry for defense purposes you have to be comfortable with using the weapon. It is a HUGE responsibility and to me learning and becoming proficient with the weapon so that you are not a liability to yourself and others is vital.

I am tickled to hear more women carrying - to the OP daughter! You go girl! (however I recommend going with in the posted speed limits )Daddy you should be proud! I am hoping my daughters will make the choice to be prepared to take care of themselves. We are doing what we can...

[mreavis]

To Original Poster:
Love the post haha, I wish I ran into more LEOs like that. Or maybe not haha?

Bullet Effectiveness:
Based on simple math and tests, yes a .380 is not the best option for a defense pisto. Unless your daughter plans to be shooting people in the head left and right, a 9mm is more than enough.

That being said, out of a 9mm, 45acp, and a 40 caliber. The worst round you could get is the .40. The .40 caliber has a set maximum effective loading stat. This is why there are no variations in powered behind that bullet. The 9mm and 45acp have what is called +P or even +P+ loadings. Since there are different grain weights of bullets, and different loadings of powder for the 9mm and 45acp, they both are capable of hitting the same statistics of each other.

There is no such thing as Knock down power with a pistol. Aside from maybe a .50 cal haha. If you throw a bullet at someone it wont knock them down. If you shoot it at them at 300,000 feet per second, they probably wont even know it went through them for the first 3 seconds. I have no idea why anyone thinks there is an in between of bullet weight and speed that creates some anomaly of foot pounds of force, and then spreads the force over an entire persons center of balance.

All in all, velocity and weight make a round have a certain amount of force when it hits. The 45acp and 9mm are capable of almost the exact same stats when using +P loadings. You can look it up online in many places. That leaves only the size of the bullet. You should be using hollow points for self defense because they work better, and they are less likely to go through your target and hit something else. An expanded 45acp and 9mm projectile are darn near the same size. The 45acp is obviously a bit bigger so technically that makes it the more effective bullet. But then again the 45 has lower capacity for guns and higher recoil, which is a downside.

So it seriously, seriously, is just to each there own guys. 99.9% of what matters is where you hit them and IF you hit them. I give credit to anyone taking the responsibility to defend themselves by carrying any gun. But if you find yourself in a gun fight and think the 9mm or the 45acp is going to win it for you, your sadly mistaken.

[Gr8_Outdoorsman]

I want to clear something up for Thomas since he is a new gun owner and wanting to learn. Stopping power is a fairly undefined term when it comes to defensive shooting (not to be confused with 'knock down' power which is total hooey.)

There are basically three ways that a bullet striking an individual will stop them; a central nervous system hit, bleeding out or giving up.

With a central nervous system hit, the body will immediately look to shut down and the person will usually collapse or be unable to control their system and continue their attack.

Second, if the bullet doesn't strike the central nervous system, then you have to wait for the wound to bleed out so the attacker looses enough blood they can no longer function and stop their attack. This will vary greatly depending on where the bullet entered the body and if it strikes a major vessel or not. The bigger the hole, the more blood loss usually, but again it depends on the location of the hit.

The third is the attacker realizes they have been shot and mentally decides to quit attacking and retreats or surrenders.

A shot to the center of mass of the body has a greater chance of you scoring a hit and hitting a vital organ or the central nervous system. A shot to the head will be even more effective usually, but harder to hit. A handgun caliber with more muzzle energy and mass transfered to the attacker can be a benefit (heavier round and/or faster velocity) to create more shock to the system. It can also help in penetration of outer clothing, and will be better going through fat and bone.

Bottom line, any handgun caliber can do the job with the proper shot placement, even a .22. But a larger diameter, heavier, faster round will usually have a better chance at causing one of the three issues above to occur, therefore stopping your attacker.

Hope that helps a little.

And, to stay totally on topic, I am glad she was carrying. Good for her. Wish I could get my wife to carry.

Probably the most reasonable response to the whole "stopping power" discussion that I've read on any forum.

As an avid deer hunter, I've hit plenty of deer/hogs in the heart with a ballistic tip rifle bullet (7mm Mag and .270) and still had them run 50 yards or more. Yet, I've seen them dropped in their tracks from a .22 caliber shot to the neck or head. Remember, this is an animal usually less than 200lbs with much more energy being delivered than any standard concealed carry weapon.

[chuckybrown]

That being said, out of a 9mm, 45acp, and a 40 caliber. The worst round you could get is the .40. The .40 caliber has a set maximum effective loading stat. This is why there are no variations in powered behind that bullet. The 9mm and 45acp have what is called +P or even +P+ loadings. Since there are different grain weights of bullets, and different loadings of powder for the 9mm and 45acp, they both are capable of hitting the same statistics of each other.

There are "no variations of power" because of the already high pressures of this cartridge......NOT because someone's not making it. And, you can get many bullet weights/types.

If you want a .40mm +P, that's essentially a 10mm......from which the .40 was born.

Like anything else, it comes down to choice. I can carry my .45 with seven rounds, or my XDm .40 with 17, depending on what I'm doing, what I'm wearing, etc.

Peace.

[Warhammer]

That being said, out of a 9mm, 45acp, and a 40 caliber. The worst round you could get is the .40. The .40 caliber has a set maximum effective loading stat. This is why there are no variations in powered behind that bullet. The 9mm and 45acp have what is called +P or even +P+ loadings. Since there are different grain weights of bullets, and different loadings of powder for the 9mm and 45acp, they both are capable of hitting the same statistics of each other.

Wow! So 9mm is better than .40 because it is capable of being loaded weaker, yet (if your gun can handle it, and many 9mm's can't!) you can buy a wildcat cartridge that almost equals a .40, except that the bullet is smaller and velocity is lower. Yeah, that makes sense... I guess the entire LE community is going away from 9mm in favor of .40 because of this.

[gigag04]

Yeah and for the record 9mm +P /= .45acp.

In the same way speeding car /= slower truck, but think on a smaller scale.

We can get into all the physics equations but that's been done a time or two on the Internet.

[mreavis]

The only thing that matters for "knock down" is foot pounds of force. Look up a .40cal, a +p+ 9mm, and a 45 +p. As I agreed with originally, because of the 45s slightly larger size and weight yes it has the highest amount. But its minimal at best.

The thing you mention about the car vs the truck is correct. What it really also proves is something the size of a quarter does not have the cubic area to spread force evenly over someones body causing there center of balance to fail. You can't spread force like that with something so small.

To put it simply, none of those 3 calibers are a big enough object to spread that amount of force evenly over your body. All of the force hits one small spot. Now imagine if a square foot piece of tile hit someone flat in the chest with the same amount of force. There will be a lot less penetration and a lot more force spread over the body, instead of into the body.

Never was trying to argue that any round is SO much better than the other. Actually quite the opposite, they are very similar for the most part. And none of the have the energy to knock a person over by force. By shock? By disability? By fear? Yes.

Newtons Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

You don't fall over when you shoot it..... (given there is a little variation, but that is 90% still true)

[Barbi Q]

The thing you mention about the car vs the truck is correct. What it really also proves is something the size of a quarter does not have the cubic area to spread force evenly over someones body causing there center of balance to fail. You can't spread force like that with something so small.

It depends how much energy is behind it. A skilled or really strong person could poke someone with the end of a pool cue hard enough to knock them over.

[mreavis]

Once penetration occurs force is spread to different areas than against the bodies balance. But yea someone probably could do that with a pool stick...

[RPB]

The thing you mention about the car vs the truck is correct. What it really also proves is something the size of a quarter does not have the cubic area to spread force evenly over someones body causing there center of balance to fail. You can't spread force like that with something so small.

It depends how much energy is behind it. A skilled or really strong person could poke someone with the end of a pool cue hard enough to knock them over.

unless they were a magic bracelet "as seen on TV"

[KD5NRH]

A skilled or really strong person could poke someone with the end of a pool cue hard enough to knock them over.

I can knock over a much bigger guy than myself with one hand if he's not expecting the push. I'm pretty sure the recoil of my Mossberg with 3.5" magnums would knock me flat if I didn't brace for it. I know that having it less-than-firmly tucked will result in a numb right arm.

[txmatt]

The only thing that matters for "knock down" is foot pounds of force.

foot pounds of force?

pounds is a unit of force. Foot pounds is a unit of energy or work

[chuckybrown]

The only thing that matters for "knock down" is foot pounds of force. Look up a .40cal, a +p+ 9mm, and a 45 +p. As I agreed with originally, because of the 45s slightly larger size and weight yes it has the highest amount. But its minimal at best.

The thing you mention about the car vs the truck is correct. What it really also proves is something the size of a quarter does not have the cubic area to spread force evenly over someones body causing there center of balance to fail. You can't spread force like that with something so small.

To put it simply, none of those 3 calibers are a big enough object to spread that amount of force evenly over your body. All of the force hits one small spot. Now imagine if a square foot piece of tile hit someone flat in the chest with the same amount of force. There will be a lot less penetration and a lot more force spread over the body, instead of into the body.

Never was trying to argue that any round is SO much better than the other. Actually quite the opposite, they are very similar for the most part. And none of the have the energy to knock a person over by force. By shock? By disability? By fear? Yes.

Newtons Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

You don't fall over when you shoot it..... (given there is a little variation, but that is 90% still true)

Unless you get a "central nervous system" hit, you're not going to knock anyone over...be it a .380, a .40, or a .45......even if fired from a Kimber Custom....yea, hard to believe, I know......

To each their own....opinion, weapon, or otherwise.

I hope NONE of us ever has to experience that moment when he/she has to actually pull the trigger. However, I pray that you hit a vital, rather than hoping 230 grains in the shoulder is "disabling enough"......

Peace.

[Warhammer]

The only thing that matters for "knock down" is foot pounds of force. Look up a .40cal, a +p+ 9mm, and a 45 +p. As I agreed with originally, because of the 45s slightly larger size and weight yes it has the highest amount. But its minimal at best.

Ok, the strongest loads (measured in muzzle energy) for each caliber from Buffalo Bore:

9mm Luger (SKU: 24A/20) - 500 ft.lbs
.40 S&W (SKU: 23A/20) - 582 ft. lbs.
.45 ACP (SKU: 45-185/20) - 543 ft. lbs.

So, if foot pounds is the end-all, be-all measurement of a bullet's worth, how again is .40 S&W "the worst round you could get" among these three?