Is Their 51% Sign Legit?

[randomoutburst]

My husband and I are starting our own business and are renting an office from a local business. It is a sporting events center, but is used daily by teams using the area for practice. This includes cheerleading, wrestling, etc. They have fight nights on occasion as well. It is posted with 51%, and we couldn't believe it. They do sell wine and beer, but I've seen the bar area and it's not a main attraction. I have a hard time believing it's really 51% unless the business itself isn't collecting the admission fees to the fights or if the money they make from the teams doesn't qualify as part of their "gross receipts".
I'm not really sure how it works anyway, and I've tried inquiring via the provided email on the TABC website. They haven't been much help, and keep wanting me to "clarify what information I need." I've told them I want to know how to determine if this place can legally post the 51% sign - how much clearer can I be?? The public inquiry form doesn't turn up anything I consider useful.

Does anyone know how to interpret the public inquiry results I got, or know of a way to find out if they really are 51%?

Their TABC license # is NB748807. I know it says "Wine Court and Club" but if you've been to this place...it's not. They tout it as a sportsplex for local teams, most of which are still in school and obviously not of drinking age. The owner said the parents may have a beer or glass of wine on occasion while waiting for their children, but there's no partying or excessive drinking going on at any time, even on fight nights. From what I've seen, he's right! That's why I just can't work it out in my head if they're actually 51%. If they are, oh well...but if they're not, I want to be able to carry in there!

[CaptWoodrow10]

The simplest way would be to simply ask to see their license. It will say either "Sign=Red", which is a true 51% establishment, or "Sign=Blue". "Sign=Blue" means carry away. That's all I've got for you. Good luck!

[E.Marquez]

Lic # NB748807 is for a
BEVERAGE CARTAGE PERMIT (PE)
Permit authorizes a Mixed Beverage, Private Club Registration, Private Club Wine and Beer or Private Club Exemption Certificate permittee who holds this permit to transport alcoholic beverages to the licensed premises from the place of purchase

As stated above check the actual posted license.. It should not be red.. it SHOULD be a Blue lic... meaning not 51%

[Xaved]

My husband and I are starting our own business and are renting an office from a local business. It is a sporting events center, but is used daily by teams using the area for practice. This includes cheerleading, wrestling, etc. They have fight nights on occasion as well. It is posted with 51%, and we couldn't believe it. They do sell wine and beer, but I've seen the bar area and it's not a main attraction. I have a hard time believing it's really 51% unless the business itself isn't collecting the admission fees to the fights or if the money they make from the teams doesn't qualify as part of their "gross receipts".

Wouldn't that fact disqualify it as a conceal carry zone anyway? I seem to remember a thread a few months back mentioning that you shouldn't carry even at team practices, for the simple fact that "sporting event" is too general of a term.

Then there's the fact that if it is used by school teams then it becomes the grounds where a school sanctioned activity is taking place, meaning you can't carry there.

But, in relation to the topic, maybe the "bar area" is a separate entity that is also renting from the center? If the center itself is one entity and the bar is another entity who rents from the center, then the bar may very well be a 51% business.

[Lonest4r]

I don't think that they can hold school sanctioned sporting events there because I'm pretty sure UIL rules prohibit alcohol sales at their events. It may have changed since then.

[Xaved]

I don't think that they can hold school sanctioned sporting events there because I'm pretty sure UIL rules prohibit alcohol sales at their events. It may have changed since then.

School doesn't only mean middle or high school. University or community college teams too.

[randomoutburst]

To clarify, I am almost 100% sure that the team practices are not school-sanctioned. Only the high schools here have cheerleading squads, wrestling teams, etc, and these kids are much younger. I remember being on a cheerleading squad in 6th grade, but it was a private entity sponsored by our city. I think this is the same sort of thing. The schools have facilities for team practices anyway, and it would be very unlikely that they would move their teams to a private location for practice especially since they would have to pay for its use, when they can use their own facilities for free.

Even if a team practice is considered a "sporting event", it would be okay to carry while the teams are not there, correct? And doesn't that only apply to "professional" sporting events anyway??

[Xaved]

That is true.

If my first post is correct about the bar being a separate entity renting from the center though, the 51% sign should only be at the bar area of the center. I've seen this many times at bowling alleys and the like.

[randomoutburst]

That is true.

If my first post is correct about the bar being a separate entity renting from the center though, the 51% sign should only be at the bar area of the center. I've seen this many times at bowling alleys and the like.

No, I don't think the bar is renting from the center - I think the center provides it for parents and spectators. Still...
Anyway, I requested a certified copy of their license from the TABC (after finally explaining to them, via phone, what I wanted) so hopefully that will clear up the issue.

[MoJo]

The bar has to have their license displayed publicly why not just go look at it? Red = no Blue = yes. Don't make it any harder than you have to.

[Keith B]

That is true.

If my first post is correct about the bar being a separate entity renting from the center though, the 51% sign should only be at the bar area of the center. I've seen this many times at bowling alleys and the like.

Actually, I believe the whole location could be a 51% area, even if the bar is owned separately. If I remember correctly, if the licensee applies for coverage of the whole building, and TABC shows the whole address in the information that they received, then all of it would be 51%, even if the bar is owned separately.

I will look to srothstein for confimation or correction if I am wrong on this.

[srothstein]

Keith has it correct on how the whole building could be 51%, and I will explain that in a minute.

First I wanted to correct Bronco78's reading of the license since it is part of the problem. The first two characters of the license number tell you what kind of license it is. In this case, NB is a private club beer and wine permit, allowing the sale of beer or wine to members of the club. The PE is listed as a subordinate, which means it is an additional license to the one the main number is issued for. In this case, the PE allows the club owner to transport alcoholic beverages as part of the business. I am stretching my memory here, but I seem to recall that Grayson County is pretty dry except for the private clubs which causes all sorts of problems. The cartage license is required to let him get the liquor from the distributor, which may not even be in the county, back to the club.

The reason I wanted to cover this first is because it explains that the license is for a private club. The laws on those get really weird really fast. In a normal license, the law allows one main license per address. The business owner could get it or the bar owner if they sublet the location. In either case, the license automatically covers the whole location unless some part of the building is diagrammed off on the license application. In the case of the sublet store, it can be argued that the license is restricted to just the rented part, as this is done for stores in malls and such. It is not a foregone conclusion on this and may need to be decided by a court, which I recommend avoiding. The real trick is if the business owner applies for the license, he is supposed to list all of the receipts of the business on the application, which makes 51% alcohol pretty hard to get.

The advantage to covering the entire building with the license is that it lets customers drink in any part of the building. The disadvantage is that it makes the whole building a 51% location IF the license is written that way. The advantage to diagramming part of the building off on the license is that it really limits TABC in the searches and inspections. It also makes the 51% easier to legally get if that is your goal. The disadvantage is that it means the customers cannot legally take their drinks to their seats to watch sporting events. This would drastically lower sales.

And now for the amazing part and why private clubs can be so confusing. I am stretching my memory hard here and I could be wrong since I never worked in a private club area (some parts of the state have a lot of private clubs, others have almost none). There are different types of private clubs. One type makes all the alcohol purchases out of the club funds and all jointly owned by the club members. They are only allowed to charge for the setups, etc. and the alcohol charges are billed as part of your monthly dues. If this is the type of club setup, they are not making any money from the sales of alcoholic beverages since the members already own the booze. I am not sure how many clubs are set up this way, and how many are set up to sell the booze. Both have the same effect of selling alcohol. This is another of those areas where no one has looked carefully at the actual wording of the law and how it would apply for CHL or 51% rules.

[apostate]

My husband and I are starting our own business and are renting an office from a local business.

Wouldn't that make the office premises under your control?

[randomoutburst]

My husband and I are starting our own business and are renting an office from a local business.

Wouldn't that make the office premises under your control?

I doubt that will matter since the license is, indeed, red. And as Keith said, it likely covers the entire building.

[dicion]

My husband and I are starting our own business and are renting an office from a local business.

Wouldn't that make the office premises under your control?

I doubt that will matter since the license is, indeed, red. And as Keith said, it likely covers the entire building.

Actually, it does matter, as 51% laws only apply if you're carrying under CHL.

If you're on, or going to or from, a premises under your control from your vehicle, you're legal under 46.02, so you do not need the nonapplicability clause, so you are not carrying under CHL.

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally,
knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority
of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of
whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's
person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued
under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if
the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or
service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined
by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section
104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code


PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries
on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the
person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's
control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned
by the person or under the person's control.

PC §46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued
under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a
concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;