Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

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seamusTX
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#31

Post by seamusTX »

KD5NRH wrote:
seamusTX wrote:Hinting to a criminal who is committing a crime (which he most likely is if he is in your house without your permission) that you are a police officer is not "impersonating an officer."
How do you figure?
You have to look at how the crime of impersonating a police officer is actually prosecuted. It is nearly always a case where some guy pieces together some used clothing that looks like a police uniform, and then accosts people to commit robbery, rape, extortion, or shake-downs.

Then you have pranksters like this one: http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 15&t=22060" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In my opinion, whatever you say or do to stop a robber or burglar in the act is going to be OK as long as it is not reckless or negligent (I'm thinking here of firing a weapon indiscriminately). The criminal does not have a lot of credibility in that case, especially if he has a record of convictions.

- Jim
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txharleyrider46
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#32

Post by txharleyrider46 »

The Annoyed Man wrote:It is inconceivable to me that a judge wouldn't throw such a suit out of court. You're in your home, minding your own business, and a burglar enters? He's darn lucky if he doesn't get shot - and if it's at night, you're well within your rights to shoot first and ask questions later. If I hold an intruder at gunpoint until the police arrive, and it is my home, I expect the police to say "job well done, we'll take it from here," and never hear about it again until I appear as a witness at the BG's trial. If not, I'll make mincemeat in the local press out of the judge, the prosecutor, and the perp.

I'm not havin' it.

That's what I think, there's not a judge or jurry that would convict you. I would think the castel doctrine would apply even if just holding the BG, go ahead and shoot him though just to be safe.

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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#33

Post by Skipper5 »

I'm not a lawyer - but, in that we have the Castle Doctrine as law in TX; why would this not protect the criminal and civil rights of the homeowner; even if the lethal force was not used....only the threat of same, when ordering BG to 'not move" and 911 called.

If BGs have entered your house; they aren't there for a tea party. The concept of "retaining" (i.e telling BG to stay still) being an offense against the homeowner does not make any sense, if I'd read the thread correctly.

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Skipper5
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#34

Post by Skipper5 »

Again, where are you going with 'impersonating an Peace Officer' in the original scenario described....Who's trying to impersonate a COP???
You come across BGs in your house. For crying out loud yall, in the incident of a burglary or robbery, etc.....you make and report to responding Peace officers that you are making a citizen's arrest. The Officers did not see the act of the BGs entering, inside, rifling through; but, you come across them while they are in progress...then you make the arrest and indicate to Cops of your intentions and recap details of what you, and/or others saw.

Maybe we need to get Charles in here to evaluate the thread and provide the relavent law(s).

John
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#35

Post by The Annoyed Man »

LarryH wrote:
Aggie_engr wrote:<snip> If they are of the cowardly type that drops to ground like a girl screaming don't shoot me, I might try to cuff them and hold them till the cops show up. <snip>
p.s. Cuffs are relatively cheap. Picked up a nice pair of Smith&Wessons from the gun show for around $30.
It has been mentioned before on this forum that LEOs are strongly advised to be very careful while cuffing a suspect/perp/unsub/whatever. It's too easy for the perp to turn the tables on a solo LEO trying to apply cuffs while keeping him/her covered. It's even possible for him/her to monkey up the process in which one LEO does the cuffing while his/her partner covers the perp, unless they've practiced it extensively.

IMHO. YMMV.
You're right. I wouldn't even dream of trying to cuff an intruder. It's too risky. That's what cops get paid for, not me, and I don't have that kind of training anyway. I will make him lie down, and I will keep the gun pointed on them, and I will communicate as loudly and emphatically as I know how that I will shoot him (a LOT) if he even scratches his nose without my permission. Like I said before, he's in my home, uninvited and without permission, in the middle of the night, I'm the homeowner and he's the burglar, and it's his word against mine? He should be thanking Jesus he didn't get shot. I'm a reasonably smart guy, and I know how to turn a phrase. Any judge or prosecutor or perpetrator who made legal trouble for me would rapidly find himself in such deep yogurt in the press if any charges were filed against me, or if a perp trying to sue me didn't have the suit immediately dismissed before it cost me even one thin dime, as to make it far too personally costly an enterprise for him to pursue.

Like I said, I'm not having it. This is America, dammit.

Now if it's California, all bets are off. :mrgreen:
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Purplehood
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#36

Post by Purplehood »

I see a lot of folks mentioning how they "won't have it" and that they will immediately go to the press and scream bloody-murder if prosecuted for home-defense actions.

A) I don't see that as impressing prosecutors or law-enforcement.

B) Since when does the press show any kind of favorable bias to homeowners wielding guns?
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#37

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Purplehood wrote:I see a lot of folks mentioning how they "won't have it" and that they will immediately go to the press and scream bloody-murder if prosecuted for home-defense actions.

A) I don't see that as impressing prosecutors or law-enforcement.

B) Since when does the press show any kind of favorable bias to homeowners wielding guns?
If I'm being unfairly prosecuted for a legitimate home defense and citizen's arrest, then I don't give a rip about impressing a prosecutor. I'm interested in punishment through political consequences. I live in Grapevine, which is in Tarrant county. For sure, the Houston Chronicle will misrepresent the story, but they have no influence over local elections here, so they can publish whatever rot they like. The Dallas Morning News will be ambivalent, which I can accept; the Forth Worth Star Telegram will likely tell it more or less accurately; and my LOCAL papers, which matter most to local voters, will report it favorably (to me). Where I live, local law enforcement are friendly to homeowners, and they really dislike criminals. If a local prosecutor or judge were imprudent enough to make it hard on me, I would make sure that, come election time, the public would be repeatedly reminded that this DA, or this judge cannot be trusted with the public welfare - and why. I would tell my firsthand story in the local press (DFW area) - the ones read by local voters - and see to it that the individual lost and could no longer harm the interests of the people who pay their salaries. I would tell my firsthand story at political gatherings wherever possible. At the candidate's gatherings, I would quietly circulate and tell my story to anyone who would listen. I'm a member of the local chamber of commerce, and I would spread the word through that channel at every opportunity. In short, I would do everything I could possibly do, through every possible legal channel, including the press, as is my right as a citizen, to make sure that this person would be relegated to obscurity and never serve in an elected office in this area again.

You can poo-poo the idea, but the truth is that local political activity at the grassroots level is very effective. Just ask Obama and his buddies at ACORN what they think about that. And there is nothing so effective at the local level as a compelling story - especially if it is true.

I'm not denying that there are some gray areas in the law here that are open to interpretation, like whether or not you can hold an intruder against his will, but the reality is that most rational LEOs, prosecutors, and judges do have some discretion in determining the applicability of the law with regard to the relevance of background facts, and use that discretion to guide their decision making. So even if a homeowner holding a burglar at bay is a legal gray area, most LEOs, prosecutors, and judges (at least in my area) are going to focus their attention on why the perp came to be held at bay - which is that he got caught in the commission of a felony by the homeowner - not on whether or not the homeowner was skirting with the edge of legal definitions in detaining the felon. And by the way, I'm talking about an intruder inside my home. If I catch an intruder in my backyard and he tries to run, I'm going to let him go. But anyone bold enough to enter a home, particularly when the resident is home, is to be considered a dangerous person, and they need to be taken off the street. Letting him go just makes him the next guy's problem, and maybe he kills a homeowner the next time.

Like I said, I'm not having it.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

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tfrazier
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#38

Post by tfrazier »

Anyone who breaks into Fort Frazier is going to leave bleeding at a minimum. If I'm not there, they'll probably be wearing the pit bull and mastiff like fur coats until someone shows up to order them off.

If I am there, they'll still suffer dog bites, and maybe get lead poisoning if I feel they are a danger to me or my family.

I wouldn't try to restrain them if they decided to flee. I figure the police will have a nice blood trail to track them down with.

I'm also fairly positive I'd end up sued over the dog bites, but so what? This is Texas, and even if I end up with a jury full of idiots I'll just appeal 'til I get to someone with common sense. Small risk for the security and peace of mind the varmits provide.

But it's never going to happen. Three large dogs is a 99.99999999% insurance that no one in their right mind is going to pick my house for a burglary/robbery.
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Purplehood
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#39

Post by Purplehood »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Purplehood wrote:I see a lot of folks mentioning how they "won't have it" and that they will immediately go to the press and scream bloody-murder if prosecuted for home-defense actions.

A) I don't see that as impressing prosecutors or law-enforcement.

B) Since when does the press show any kind of favorable bias to homeowners wielding guns?
If I'm being unfairly prosecuted for a legitimate home defense and citizen's arrest, then I don't give a rip about impressing a prosecutor. I'm interested in punishment through political consequences. I live in Grapevine, which is in Tarrant county. For sure, the Houston Chronicle will misrepresent the story, but they have no influence over local elections here, so they can publish whatever rot they like. The Dallas Morning News will be ambivalent, which I can accept; the Forth Worth Star Telegram will likely tell it more or less accurately; and my LOCAL papers, which matter most to local voters, will report it favorably (to me). Where I live, local law enforcement are friendly to homeowners, and they really dislike criminals. If a local prosecutor or judge were imprudent enough to make it hard on me, I would make sure that, come election time, the public would be repeatedly reminded that this DA, or this judge cannot be trusted with the public welfare - and why. I would tell my firsthand story in the local press (DFW area) - the ones read by local voters - and see to it that the individual lost and could no longer harm the interests of the people who pay their salaries. I would tell my firsthand story at political gatherings wherever possible. At the candidate's gatherings, I would quietly circulate and tell my story to anyone who would listen. I'm a member of the local chamber of commerce, and I would spread the word through that channel at every opportunity. In short, I would do everything I could possibly do, through every possible legal channel, including the press, as is my right as a citizen, to make sure that this person would be relegated to obscurity and never serve in an elected office in this area again.

You can poo-poo the idea, but the truth is that local political activity at the grassroots level is very effective. Just ask Obama and his buddies at ACORN what they think about that. And there is nothing so effective at the local level as a compelling story - especially if it is true.

I'm not denying that there are some gray areas in the law here that are open to interpretation, like whether or not you can hold an intruder against his will, but the reality is that most rational LEOs, prosecutors, and judges do have some discretion in determining the applicability of the law with regard to the relevance of background facts, and use that discretion to guide their decision making. So even if a homeowner holding a burglar at bay is a legal gray area, most LEOs, prosecutors, and judges (at least in my area) are going to focus their attention on why the perp came to be held at bay - which is that he got caught in the commission of a felony by the homeowner - not on whether or not the homeowner was skirting with the edge of legal definitions in detaining the felon. And by the way, I'm talking about an intruder inside my home. If I catch an intruder in my backyard and he tries to run, I'm going to let him go. But anyone bold enough to enter a home, particularly when the resident is home, is to be considered a dangerous person, and they need to be taken off the street. Letting him go just makes him the next guy's problem, and maybe he kills a homeowner the next time.

Like I said, I'm not having it.
I do not "poo-poo" the idea of grassroots activism. My beef is that I see the mainstream media as next to useless when it comes to certain issues. Like this one. I hope I clarified that for you.
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seamusTX
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#40

Post by seamusTX »

I have to agree with Purplehood on this issue. The media never protray a non-LEO citizen who defends himself from criminals as someone who did a reasonable and righteous thing. At best they are neutral, and often they insinuate that the defender was a vigilante or trigger-happy redneck.

If race is a factor, they interview the criminal's family and the usual suspects about the unfairness of it all, and how he was a choirboy who just fell in with a bad crowd.

They're not all that kind to LEOs, either.

- Jim
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kP380
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#41

Post by kP380 »

I'm mostly favoring the 'restrain the bad guy in the middle of the night on your living room floor' than just let him walk out the front door and bid him :tiphat:

BUT I would NOT want to try and cuff the guy or go anywhere near him (say with cable ties, or anything else) b/c he might be concealing or may get the drop on me as I approach.

I've read elsewhere about 911 dispatchers wanting you to stand your firearm down for when the police arrive, and the less time the BG spends in my house the better...which leads me to this quandry:

So, logistically, would I want to bring him outside my house, having him lie on the grass while I have my piece trained on him, in my boxers? Bring him into the bedroom, while I put something on, and then go hold him outside?! "rlol"
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Syntax360
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#42

Post by Syntax360 »

A lot of it is going to be up to the discretion of the responding officers. One anecdote I can contribute involved one of my good friends a couple of years ago - he heard his dogs barking in the middle of the night and went outside to investigate. He found three kids breaking into his car, one already inside. He pursued one on foot (unarmed), caught him somewhere near the end of the block, and dragged the kid back to his apartment. He and his roommate held the kid, at gunpoint, until police arrived. Nevermind that my friend did everything wrong that night - Arlington police didn't give him any flak for it. The other two kids were round up after their "buddy" spilled the beans on their names and address. The incident got a short article buried somewhere in the Star Telegram a day or two later.

Suffice it to say, I wouldn't recommend anyone imitate my friend's actions - with my luck, I'm quite sure that things would not have gone so smooth if I would have tried that.
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#43

Post by kP380 »

Syntax360 wrote: Nevermind that my friend did everything wrong that night - Arlington police didn't give him any flak for it.
Just curious how "everything" they did was wrong...were you referring to the part about bringing the BG back to his apt?
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#44

Post by KC5AV »

kP380 wrote:
Syntax360 wrote: Nevermind that my friend did everything wrong that night - Arlington police didn't give him any flak for it.
Just curious how "everything" they did was wrong...were you referring to the part about bringing the BG back to his apt?
And the fact that he went outside to investigate.
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Re: Consequences For Holding A Bad Guy

#45

Post by jamisjockey »

Abraham wrote:If a criminal breaks into your home and you hold him at gunpoint until the police arrive, are you in violation of the law?
Absolutely not

If you're attacked on the street and you hold a criminal at gunpoint until the police arrive, are you in trouble?
Absolutely not
Thanks
PC §9.03. CONFINEMENT AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. Confinement
is justified when force is justified by this chapter if the actor takes
reasonable measures to terminate the confinement as soon as he
knows he safely can unless the person confined has been arrested for
an offense.
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