Agreed. I think Brian's rule is good: If I'm OK to drive, then I'm OK to carry. And I'm pretty discriminating about whether I'm OK to drive or not. Working in an ER for 5 years will do that to you. In fact, I rarely ever consume any alcohol in public at all. (The 3 or 4 friends on this board who have seem me do so, have witnessed a very rare event. You should feel privileged. ) About the only time I even drink at home is if I'm having a barbecue and I invite friends over. But even then, 2 or 3 beers over the course of an afternoon and evening is about my limit. Love the taste. Don't like the buzz. I've stuck a 6 pack in the fridge before, and 8 or 10 months later it will be still mostly untouched.BrianSW99 wrote:I agree, the guy at the bar sounds like he was either intoxicated or a total moron.
Customer Outs Himself
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
"Carrying" while drinking is not prohibited, but it is a criminal offense to carry while intoxicated.
According to the Texas Penal Code, it is unlawful for an individual who is intoxicated to carry a handgun. It is important to note that the Penal Code defines “intoxicated” as not having the normal use of mental or physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance in the body. Additionally, the Penal Code considers having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or higher to constitute intoxication.
If I'm intentionally going to an establishment to consume alcohol, the gun either stays home or gets locked in the trunk.
If I'm out for dinner and make a spur of the moment decision to have a drink
with my meal, I go with the "if I'm ok to drive, I'm ok to carry" approach.
According to the Texas Penal Code, it is unlawful for an individual who is intoxicated to carry a handgun. It is important to note that the Penal Code defines “intoxicated” as not having the normal use of mental or physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance in the body. Additionally, the Penal Code considers having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or higher to constitute intoxication.
If I'm intentionally going to an establishment to consume alcohol, the gun either stays home or gets locked in the trunk.
If I'm out for dinner and make a spur of the moment decision to have a drink
with my meal, I go with the "if I'm ok to drive, I'm ok to carry" approach.
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
My CHL instructor said that the law defines "intoxicated" as having any substance in your body that can alter your perception and/or behavior. That would cover alcohol, medication that makes you drowsy, etc. You may be able to convince a jury that you aren't affected by one beer...but then again, you might not. I would personally always err on the side of safety and not drink at all while carrying. My bartender and I probably think the same way on that issue, hence his response to the guy at the bar. I think the guy was probably legally intoxicated (BAL > 0.8) judging by his actions.
EDIT: Wow, USA1....beat me to it! :)
EDIT: Wow, USA1....beat me to it! :)
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
That's just no bueno for anyone involved. I can't imagine someone yelling that out.
Gig'em,
Loneaggie
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
Carrying has actually saved me a lot of money just by not drinking while going out. Not speaking of clubs, or bars, but as in restauraunts. I drink heavily when I want, but this has settled me down a good amount. I noticed how much money I saved, too. Having a good night is great, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather spend that money on rounds and having fun at the range - or even towards a new pistol. ;)
We don't need no stinking badges!
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
This is the smartest statement in this thread so far.cbucher wrote:0 has always been my magic number as well. I would rather not give up my protection for a few drinks.
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
Our problem is that we here actually care about having the CHL and understanding the ramifications of that. We want ALL CHL holders to be upright, thoughtful, responsible citizens. But there's nothing to stop a moron* from getting his CHL as long as he passes the test. Or to stop Mr. I'm so Cool, or Mr. I'm so Bad or others of the ilk. So when we see behavior like this our reaction is, "how could they do that!" Well, that's the way they are and having a CHL doesn't change them.loneaggie wrote:That's just no bueno for anyone involved. I can't imagine someone yelling that out.
*I'm not dissing those of low IQ, this is the "Hold my beer and watch this" type moron.
Jay E Morris,
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
I may be jumping into the deep end before I have fully learned to swim, but this sort of behavior is a burr in my saddle!
I just completed and passed my CHL course yesterday. However, I have been handling weapons, long and short all my life. I have been taugh to respect "implements of destruction", and NEVER take them lightly. While they can be fun for hunting and target shooting, they are not toys and handling them is a huge responsibility.
To the best of my understanding here is my take: While there is no stated "legal limit" in the penal code for carrying, it sure would not look good in a civil suite. In addition, I think as CHL holders we have an obligation to ourselves and all other CHL holders to conduct ourselves to the highest of standards at all times and in all circumstances.
A case of IMHO terminal stupidity as displayed in the original scenario is detrimental to all of us. I agree with those that state "0" is my limit.
JMHO
DA
I just completed and passed my CHL course yesterday. However, I have been handling weapons, long and short all my life. I have been taugh to respect "implements of destruction", and NEVER take them lightly. While they can be fun for hunting and target shooting, they are not toys and handling them is a huge responsibility.
To the best of my understanding here is my take: While there is no stated "legal limit" in the penal code for carrying, it sure would not look good in a civil suite. In addition, I think as CHL holders we have an obligation to ourselves and all other CHL holders to conduct ourselves to the highest of standards at all times and in all circumstances.
A case of IMHO terminal stupidity as displayed in the original scenario is detrimental to all of us. I agree with those that state "0" is my limit.
JMHO
DA
Blessed be the LORD, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle; Psalm 144:1-2
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
The guy mentioned in the original post was a moron.
The "buddy" he SHOUTED to ought to be more careful about choosing his friends.
As for the alcohol discussion . . . DRUNKS ought not carry a gun any more than they should drive a car on a public road. A beer or two doesn't make a normal person drunk.
If anyone has a reference to case law involving a successful prosecution of a person for "intoxicated carry" after they had a normal beer or two, especially with a meal, please post it.
The "buddy" he SHOUTED to ought to be more careful about choosing his friends.
As for the alcohol discussion . . . DRUNKS ought not carry a gun any more than they should drive a car on a public road. A beer or two doesn't make a normal person drunk.
If anyone has a reference to case law involving a successful prosecution of a person for "intoxicated carry" after they had a normal beer or two, especially with a meal, please post it.
Original CHL: 2000: 56 day turnaround
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
Kid of a devil's advocate thing here as I do not drink at all. But as to the carrying while intoxicated, like so many laws they have to be enforced. Yeah this guy was probably tilted but it would have to be:
A) An encounter with an LEO who has knowledge he has a weapon.
AND
B)Thought he was "impaired" (and I believe the language is intentional so the officer can use judgment).
I mean if I go through life routinely violating speed limits but unless I am stopped and ticketed, then I am going through life routinely violating speed limits.* So though we may question his wisdom (or lack there of) he may well be an idiot, no more or less. Perhaps a discreet and gentle discussion may have been in order.
As to drinking while carrying we have the necessary condition above before it can even become a problem. Wisdom and self awareness may dictate a more prudent course but I've known at least one person that, while legally intoxicated was not the least bit impaired as to speech, judgment or reflex. He would decline to drive or ask others to however.
The boogieman of defending a shooting that was otherwise justified but happened while one was "impaired" (like coming out of a dead sleep?) I don't think would be of issue with clear justification. I've seen enough court testimony and exclusion of evidence to know that, if it is not germane to the actual charge probably would be excluded during discovery hearings. Charles would be better equipped to answer this particular point. But if I am "impaired" say at my house and a BG kicks in the door and is left dead in the threshold, then the investigation should easily show that I was justified and that's it. Move the same scenario away from the domicile, add in a bunch of witnesses that see a BG attack you and you leave him dead at the car door...then the same thing. That doesn't prevent a separate charge of illegally carrying or PI from being leveled, but the shooting is either justified legally, reasonable to peers or it is not. If it was a very righteous shoot then the probability of it going to jury trial is reduced in the first place.
How about that fella in Fort Worth who shot the BG fleeing from the officer in the early A.M. in an alley? We dissected that one ad nauseum and we bantered around questions like what was he doing that late at night, going into an alley in the first place, etc, etc. Was he drinking? I don't know but it is not in any of the available information on the case. Was he otherwise impaired? Same thing. What was he doing out there that late at night, legitimate, partying, mischief? Don't know and it didn't come up. Was he no-billed? Yes. It was found justified by the grand jury.
Now all of that aside, are you more likely to get into a problem if you've had "too much" to drink? You betcha. I would rather no one drank, but realize some do. It is prudent and wise to know yourself and if there is any doubt, keep alcohol and weapons apart altogether. Is it possible one would decide to shoot when they could have done otherwise, while drinking? Depends on the personality but in general I think the answer would be yes. Where that might make a difference is when clear legal justification is absent and then you must rely on how "reasonable" it is...then it might come up and it might ruin your day.
Civilly, if it was a justified shooting, you are protected from civil liability, period. The other factors not withstanding.
*The reference to violation of posted speed limits is intended solely as an illustration and is not to be construed to mean that the author ever violates the law in any way much less routinely
A) An encounter with an LEO who has knowledge he has a weapon.
AND
B)Thought he was "impaired" (and I believe the language is intentional so the officer can use judgment).
I mean if I go through life routinely violating speed limits but unless I am stopped and ticketed, then I am going through life routinely violating speed limits.* So though we may question his wisdom (or lack there of) he may well be an idiot, no more or less. Perhaps a discreet and gentle discussion may have been in order.
As to drinking while carrying we have the necessary condition above before it can even become a problem. Wisdom and self awareness may dictate a more prudent course but I've known at least one person that, while legally intoxicated was not the least bit impaired as to speech, judgment or reflex. He would decline to drive or ask others to however.
The boogieman of defending a shooting that was otherwise justified but happened while one was "impaired" (like coming out of a dead sleep?) I don't think would be of issue with clear justification. I've seen enough court testimony and exclusion of evidence to know that, if it is not germane to the actual charge probably would be excluded during discovery hearings. Charles would be better equipped to answer this particular point. But if I am "impaired" say at my house and a BG kicks in the door and is left dead in the threshold, then the investigation should easily show that I was justified and that's it. Move the same scenario away from the domicile, add in a bunch of witnesses that see a BG attack you and you leave him dead at the car door...then the same thing. That doesn't prevent a separate charge of illegally carrying or PI from being leveled, but the shooting is either justified legally, reasonable to peers or it is not. If it was a very righteous shoot then the probability of it going to jury trial is reduced in the first place.
How about that fella in Fort Worth who shot the BG fleeing from the officer in the early A.M. in an alley? We dissected that one ad nauseum and we bantered around questions like what was he doing that late at night, going into an alley in the first place, etc, etc. Was he drinking? I don't know but it is not in any of the available information on the case. Was he otherwise impaired? Same thing. What was he doing out there that late at night, legitimate, partying, mischief? Don't know and it didn't come up. Was he no-billed? Yes. It was found justified by the grand jury.
Now all of that aside, are you more likely to get into a problem if you've had "too much" to drink? You betcha. I would rather no one drank, but realize some do. It is prudent and wise to know yourself and if there is any doubt, keep alcohol and weapons apart altogether. Is it possible one would decide to shoot when they could have done otherwise, while drinking? Depends on the personality but in general I think the answer would be yes. Where that might make a difference is when clear legal justification is absent and then you must rely on how "reasonable" it is...then it might come up and it might ruin your day.
Civilly, if it was a justified shooting, you are protected from civil liability, period. The other factors not withstanding.
*The reference to violation of posted speed limits is intended solely as an illustration and is not to be construed to mean that the author ever violates the law in any way much less routinely
I Thess 5:21
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
A clear and well argued post, and I agree in princple! That said, I don't think that a prosecutor is going to avoid the chance to try and throw alcohol into the mix if defense counsel isn't sharp enough to get that excluded.
Also, I think that there needs to be clarity on what "impaired" means. There's "legally impaired," or "judgmentally impaired," which are standards that might be looked at in a court of law. But then there also is the reality that one might not be judgmentally impaired, but that a single beer might make the difference in one's own reflexes and the ability to deploy a weapon in time to a legitimate threat. That has to be a personal standard that each person must set for him/herself. The presence of one beer's worth of alcohol in your blood, particularly after a big dinner, is not likely enough to be judged any kind of legal impairment. But it really is up to the individual whether the smallest amount of physical impairment is a standard you can live with and you cut yourself a little slack and not worry about it; or do you set for yourself an absolute Zero standard. It's up to each to make that decision
Also, I think that there needs to be clarity on what "impaired" means. There's "legally impaired," or "judgmentally impaired," which are standards that might be looked at in a court of law. But then there also is the reality that one might not be judgmentally impaired, but that a single beer might make the difference in one's own reflexes and the ability to deploy a weapon in time to a legitimate threat. That has to be a personal standard that each person must set for him/herself. The presence of one beer's worth of alcohol in your blood, particularly after a big dinner, is not likely enough to be judged any kind of legal impairment. But it really is up to the individual whether the smallest amount of physical impairment is a standard you can live with and you cut yourself a little slack and not worry about it; or do you set for yourself an absolute Zero standard. It's up to each to make that decision
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
I may be misunderstanding a statement made ...
"excluded during discovery" ?????
I'd contend it is certainly should be discoverable, even though possibly it may or may not be admissible later.
IANAL, but I handled discovery for a law firm, in literally thousands of both State and Federal cases as Senior Legal Assistant for for almost 25 years prior to retirement.
I'd state it is necessary in particular in determine what an impaired actor "believes" or "reasonably believes" while impaired.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... m/PE.9.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"excluded during discovery" ?????
I'd contend it is certainly should be discoverable, even though possibly it may or may not be admissible later.
IANAL, but I handled discovery for a law firm, in literally thousands of both State and Federal cases as Senior Legal Assistant for for almost 25 years prior to retirement.
I'd state it is necessary in particular in determine what an impaired actor "believes" or "reasonably believes" while impaired.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... m/PE.9.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by RPB on Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
IANAL either and I could easily have misused the term. Admissibility is probably what I was after. Thanks for catching that.RPB wrote:I may be misunderstanding a statement made ...
"excluded during discovery" ?????
I'd contend it is certainly should be discoverable, even though possibly it may or may not be admissible later.
IANAL, but I handled discovery for a law firm, in literally thousands of both State and Federal cases as Senior Legal Assistant for for almost 25 years prior to retirement.
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
I still thought the bar area of a restaurant was off limits.BrianSW99 wrote:Why not? At a place like Chili's, the bar is not considered separately for the 51% rule.terryg wrote:Plus, drinking or not, he and his friend should not have been at the bar area.
Brian
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Re: Customer Outs Himself
Incorrect. This only applies if the Bar is licensed separately from the restaurant, and as such, is it's own 51% location.terryg wrote:I still thought the bar area of a restaurant was off limits.BrianSW99 wrote:Why not? At a place like Chili's, the bar is not considered separately for the 51% rule.terryg wrote:Plus, drinking or not, he and his friend should not have been at the bar area.
Brian
IANAL, YMMV, ITEOTWAWKI and all that.
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