WA: Police shoot 74-year-old pastor

[seamusTX]

In Spokane, Washington, Wednesday night, a 74-year-old pastor heard a commotion outside and took a weapon to investigate. A police officer fatally shot him.

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Family- ... 78538.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Sheriff ... 87583.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.king5.com/video/featured-vid ... 78988.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I smell whitewash.

- Jim

[Excaliber]

I see a tragedy for all involved.

Citizen hears suspicious noises and goes outside with gun to investigate. Sees strange car parked outside. Approaches car to confront suspicious person or persons, and is shot by occupant of car.

Officer in unmarked car assigned to enhanced patrol duties requested by community parks vehicle to observe neighborhood activity at night. Sees clearly armed man approaching his vehicle. Perceives immediate threat to his life. Fires weapon to end threat.

Result: dead citizen.

This is another needless death that could have been prevented if the citizen had been aware of the reasoning behind my oft repeated advice to stay inside and call police to handle anything outside.

[WildBill]

I see a tragedy for all involved.

This is a tough one, but I do not think that the officer will get indicted.

[seamusTX]

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/s ... -shooting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

[Excaliber]

This one is getting increasingly complex with statements that conflict with forensic evidence, questionable circumstances in the history on both individuals involved, and an apparent stubbornness on the part of the victim to accept prior police cautions about the dangers involved in his practice of confronting people outside at night while armed.

[E.Marquez]

This is another needless death that could have been prevented if the citizen had been aware of the reasoning behind my oft repeated advice to stay inside and call police to handle anything outside.

This is great advice for those who choose to live in congested, or otherwise close in city living.

And for many, a pretty good idea no matter where you live..Stay inside, move to your strong point and await the police.. Most days, it should not take more then an hour or so.

For those that do not live in cities, the land that surrounds your home is also your responsibility and you may want to know it well enough to protect and defend.

To the specifics of this topic and thread.. The more I read, the more I'm not sure what happened or why (beyond the obvious)

[Excaliber]

This is another needless death that could have been prevented if the citizen had been aware of the reasoning behind my oft repeated advice to stay inside and call police to handle anything outside.

This is great advice for those who choose to live in congested, or otherwise close in city living.

And for many, a pretty good idea no matter where you live..Stay inside, move to your strong point and await the police.. Most days, it should not take more then an hour or so.

For those that do not live in cities, the land that surrounds your home is also your responsibility and you may want to know it well enough to protect and defend.

To the specifics of this topic and thread.. The more I read, the more I'm not sure what happened or why (beyond the obvious)

Your point here is well taken. The longer the police response time to an incident, the more you're on your own and may have to take action that would have been unnecessary with a faster response. This can occur for many reasons, including other competing emergencies that happen to overlap your own, even in a city. However, in most urban and suburban areas, there's nothing outside that I would consider worth giving or taking a life for. The potential loss is what you buy insurance to cover.

In rural areas, the general principle of remaining inside and forcing any intruder into the role of searcher in unfamiliar terrain still holds true as the safest option for the defender. The issue gets complex when there are things that are critical to one's livelihood exposed outside (farm equipment, livestock, etc.) that may be lost if one simply stays inside and waits for the police.

These are situations that should be considered in detail ahead of time, and plans to manage them should be formulated, critiqued, exercised, critiqued, and refined again so if they ever have to be used they won't make one look to the bad guys like a really tempting, vulnerable and easily neutralized target.

Going outside where intruders are believed to be is akin to stepping into a dark 360 degree shooting gallery with you as the target in the middle. Having a gun in your hand might make you feel better, but it doesn't negate the danger if the BG can see you, but you don't see him. It's a bad idea to place yourself in this situation unless whatever you're defending can't be protected any other way, and it's worth dying for if necessary. Remember that just may become the case, and there are no do overs.

That being said, if you're good with all that and there's no other way, there are circumstances where you just have to do what you have to do and accept the results.

[Oldgringo]

Excaliber wrote:

Going outside where intruders are believed to be is akin to stepping into a dark 360 degree shooting gallery with you as the target in the middle. Having a gun in your hand might make you feel better, but it doesn't negate the danger if the BG can see you, but you don't see him. It's a bad idea to place yourself in this situation unless whatever you're defending can't be protected any other way, and it's worth dying for if necessary. Remember that just may become the case, and there are no do overs.

Not only that but, the BG knows where he is and you don't.

[Excaliber]

Excaliber wrote:

Going outside where intruders are believed to be is akin to stepping into a dark 360 degree shooting gallery with you as the target in the middle. Having a gun in your hand might make you feel better, but it doesn't negate the danger if the BG can see you, but you don't see him. It's a bad idea to place yourself in this situation unless whatever you're defending can't be protected any other way, and it's worth dying for if necessary. Remember that just may become the case, and there are no do overs.

Not only that but, the BG knows where he is and you don't.

Yup, and he's got it easy - he just has to watch the house, and probably only the doors when you think about it.

You have to watch everything else!

[E.Marquez]

Yes, no, maybe, and depends.... Is that definitive enough for ya all?....
Land and an insured car are not worth going outside.. Sit and wait.
Having a background that allows me to see things in a different tactical light then most, see terrain in a tactical sense, knowing what will provide cover from what direction, elevation, angle, understanding light and how it provides advantage or disadvantage. .... 24 years of doing that makes a difference. LEO's have a perspective, but not really the same as someone who does it for a living against other then simple criminals ( EDIT wow that was condescending,, and not intended.. Point was, most criminals are not skilled in tactics, though amateurs are unpredictable as well,,so there is that.. What i meant was it's different,., not easier, or less skilled by a LEO).
I would move from an exit to a point of cover or at least concealment, and observe the strong point entrance, allowing tow layers of defense, me on the outside, family on the inside.... DO I realistically think this kind of an attack will ever happen? NOPE,,,,not where I live... But that does not change the fact I have several courses of action to implement if it does.

[hangfour]

Thoughtful posts ... lots to think about. Thanks!

[terryg]

Thoughtful posts ... lots to think about. Thanks!

Yeah, . I can say there have been a few times when my wife has stirred me from my slumber because she heard 'something'. So I, of course, sweep the house. Once I am sure it is clear, I have on a few occasions, checked outside as well. By this point, I am fairly certain it is a false alarm, but clearing the perimeter around the house helps me to confirm those suspicions.

Now, of course, I would not approach a car parked in front of the house as it seems this man did. But reading this story is making me question the wisdom of those extended searches.

[E.Marquez]

Thoughtful posts ... lots to think about. Thanks!

Yeah, . I can say there have been a few times when my wife has stirred me from my slumber because she heard 'something'. So I, of course, sweep the house. Once I am sure it is clear, I have on a few occasions, checked outside as well. By this point, I am fairly certain it is a false alarm, but clearing the perimeter around the house helps me to confirm those suspicions.

Now, of course, I would not approach a car parked in front of the house as it seems this man did. But reading this story is making me question the wisdom of those extended searches.

My Driveway is 320 feet long, House in the center of 10 AC. If a car approached the house. and Stopped short... Just sat there.. I'd turn on a light, to show someone was home and awake,, It may be legitimate visitor that did not want to disturb, might be someone bringing home my drunk son (he has never done that,,, ever.. but Kids do stupid things) The car might have one of my sons fiends in it,,, coming to find help (that has happened at O dark thirty... I seem to be the go to father when I'm not deployed for :\"my sister, brother friend is missing, gone, ran away, got jumped")

But, if the car remained in place with no attempt at contact.. LEO's get called and one of several long range optics mounted on a long range shooter will remain oriented in that direction. While I went to speak to that occupant.. Smart? Life is full of choices and risks, the chances of a home invasion or random murdering criminal showing up at my house in rural TX while possible is very slim. More likely someone lost or needing a hand. Mitigate the risk, have a plan, backup plan, cover and LEO's already called.... and ya, I'll go see what they want / need.

Check the outside? Maybe, if I believed it was a two leg intruder? No… If I felt it was a four leg vaster, that needed showing or killing.. Ya I’d go out.. Pigs, Deer, next door folks hoarse or dog loose…causing a ruckus with my dogs in the house .. Gona have to be dealt with,, they are not going away on their own. So again, plan, consider the options, the risks, plan, consider the plan when the 1st plan goes to hell,,and then go have a look.

Not the better choices for all based on where you live, capabilities etc tec.

[Bird of Prey]

I don't really understand the rationale of wandering outside in the dark when you think there may be an intruder lurking. We buy guns for recreation, but more importantly for self preservation. Why buy a gun to be safer and then walk out into an unknown situation, with an unknown number of subjects with unknown types of weapons? Makes no sense to me.

I have motion sensor lights and night vision cameras so if I hear anything I just peek over the end of my bed at the monitor. Not to mention I have one of the best security weapons anyone could have...a dog! He's a great watch dog (will bark endlessly until the perp is gone) and a great guard dog (will bite too!) And a 65 lbs boxer is intimidating enough just to look at!

[seamusTX]

I don't really understand the rationale of wandering outside in the dark when you think there may be an intruder lurking.

It's defending one's turf in a real and legitimate sense; but in my opinion it needs to be moderated with a risk-benefit analysis.

- Jim