Pulling weapon to diffuse a road rage scenario?

[The Annoyed Man]

"Self Defense is a defense to prosecution" is a major point that too often gets overlooked. Self defense doesn't mean you won't get prosecuted. It just means that it can be a legally valid defense if you are prosecuted. But if you are going to claim that defense, then - and I am no lawyer, so I can't say for certain that this is a legal fact - it would seem to me that you then have the burden of proving that self-defense was in fact necessary. And that's where the rubber meets the road. It would seem to me that self defense as a defense to prosecution places that burden on you, rather than the prosecution, and if there were other viable alternatives to the use of deadly force available to you at the time, then you may have a very hard time proving that deadly force was justifiable.

It seems like, in both scenarios you describe, there were alternatives available. And, honestly not trying to pile on, but as Keith B pointed out, making a show of your gun is chancy. I think you were lucky that time. But what if your antagonist was likewise armed and not particularly afraid of your gun? There's always the risk that displaying your firearm might actually escalate rather than deescalate the situation, and then you've already have revealed what could have been a tactical surprise on your side. Also, what if a cop happens along just then and sees your exposed firearm on the seat? Too many what ifs...

Now, I say all of that knowing that it is darn hard not to be scared in those kinds of situations - been there myself, and maybe just a little pee came out. And as a person whose mobility and ability to get physical with someone are limited, the point at which things might escalate to my use of a gun might arrive sooner than for someone with more options available to them. But it seems that, as long as you are in your vehicle, and you are not boxed in to where you cannot escape, then you still have options available to you - not the least of which is to simply drive to the nearest police station, park out front, and call then on your cellphone to let them know what is going on.

[gigag04]

I'm wondering how justified (if at all) I would be in drawing a weapon to diffuse these situations.

Not at all.


You jumped like 15 notches on the use of force continuum.

[Hoi Polloi]

Some of the respondents on this thread include law enforcement--the people who will make the front-line decision on if your show of force was justified.

I think the question is a valid one and don't fault you at all for asking it. However, it seems to me that when you got respectfully worded responses which said this is not the best course of action from people who regularly carry, who have many years of experience driving next to the types of crazies you encountered, and some of them work in law enforcement, that you threw their answers aside and decided you're gonna do what you're gonna do anyway. I hope I misread your responses because that attitude says that you aren't willing to learn and only want an excuse to show off. That kind of attitude mixed with a hot rod, young man, and a gun is a recipe for disaster. And you wouldn't need to go looking for it--as you're all too aware, it has a way of finding us whether we're looking for it or not.

[gigag04]

I guess I can further my previous comments...

Hey guys, I'm wondering if anyone has had to do the above.
this guy was either gang affiliated or wants people to think he is.

Based on what...TV monitors?

would I be justified in shooting the other driver car-to-car? Let me reiterate: there was no backing down or running away given the traffic.
Is it justifable to use a weapon to preempt assault?

Geez....are you serious? No. YOU would be the one charged with a road rage murder at that point. You can't preempt an assault with a firearm. The assault must actually be in progress. When is the last time you read the penal code - I think a review may be in order. None of these situations meet the elements for displaying, much less, using a weapon.

I would suggest that you take a deadly force seminar through this forum or similar instruction. I don't want to sound like a jerk in posting what I've posted. However, I hope to keep you away from legal trouble, and help you get a better handle on how responsibly and legally arm yourself.

[Excaliber]

Have you answered your own question?

Good info. Yes there's really no "good" ending to a story like this but I'd rather be the one breathing at the end of it.
Besides, isn't "brandishing" only a misdemenor? So worst case scenario, I diffuse the altercation but he calls 911 and I pay a fine. I'm OK with that outcome. No one got in a wreck and no one got shot.

In the 2nd scenario when I thought the driver was about to shoot me and there was no where to swerve; If I went thru it again only armed I would still be inclined to at least shoot a tire out, anything to make him miss or not be able to chase us anymore. People survive car accidents all the time but not so much the gunshot to the face... I'll gladly go to court against a ganbanger, I look like the guy that does your taxes and have a great attny.

The short version is that you can't lawfully use deadly force every time someone around you does something stupid, even if was dangerous and they did it willfully. You certainly can't lawfully do things that recklessly endanger innocent parties.

Couldn't we apply that logic to any self-defence scenario? Anytime we fire a weapon there's a risk of injury or death to bystanders. I've heard from a cop that training at the range only is a joke, he said "try running 100 yards in 110 deg heat while on adrenalin and then trying to draw and shoot, that's what it's like when you're ina life/death scenario." How many CHL holders are still a decent shot when scared s#itless? There's a scene in Boogie Nights that plays out that scenario perfectly.

Although you asked for solid answers from the knowledgeable folks on this Forum, your above post suggests you don't agree with the ones you received and are determined to do what you were going to do anyway.

That's fair enough, and I wouldn't try to convince you otherwise. Everyone makes his own decisions based on what he thinks is best and lives with the consequences.

I wish you good luck.

[Oldgringo]

...(I drive around 10 over and don't loiter in the left lane, FYI), ....

...and for all those that might be led to believe that I somehow caused these events with either bad or aggressive driving, just let it go. I'm a very safe and considerate, mature driver and have the record to show for it!

{SIGH}

If you drive 10 over, sooner or later, you'll be on the bumper of another "very safe and considerate, mature driver" who probably won't appreciate being tailgated and forced to change lanes at perhaps his/her risk.

Yeah, I can see where you could be the cause of these events. BTW, displaying your weapon is an invite to a gunfight and/or a call to the law by the displayee.

[gigag04]

troll?

[Oldgringo]

troll?

I would hope it's that rather than the alternative; however, as P. T. Barnum was quoted as saying, "...there's one born every minute..." or something like that.

[Excaliber]

troll?

I was just about to PM you with the same suspicion.

[davidtx]

I once got to witness the end result of one of these when driving back to Austin from Corpus with my car club. There were at least 6 cruisers that shut down I-35 and surrounded a car in the far left lane - with guns drawn. One of the guys in the club knew one of the LEO's and found out later that it was a road rage incident. The other car had video'd the incident and called 911.

This was before I got my CHL, but it certainly made an impression on me.

[JNMAR]

LOL...just shaking my head at this one...if it didn't have the potential of having some really serious consequences it just makes me want to say, "Sure, do it!".

[couzin]

Again, not flaming here, and not sure if you have your CHL, but I feel your posts indicate you may need to review the rules and laws on the threat and use of deadly force. Carrying a pistol for defense is a VERY serious matter and must be treated as such, and knowing the rules of when to use it and when to not use it, as well as situation deescalation techniques is imperative..

Ditto -- "Learn to bend like the willow, Grasshopper..."

[Oldgringo]

It is posts/questions like this that give me pause when the frequent questions about lowering the age for CH licensure surface.

[BrianSW99]

I don't think it would have been a good idea to pull a gun in the original situations presented, but it was also said earlier in this thread that you are only justified in pulling your gun out if you would be justified in shooting the person. From my understanding of the law, that's not the case. Here's why:

PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

So, if the threat of deadly force is not actually considered deadly force, then it could be used any time the "threat of force" would be justified. Threat of force is justified any time the use of force is justified. The use of force could be justified for a wide variety of situations that wouldn't allow you to use deadly force. Now, to be fair, PC §9.31, the self defense statute, does say that the use of force is justified "when and to the degree" the person feels the force is necessary, so I wouldn't be pulling my gun out for trivial matters. However, I do believe there are situations in which a person would be justified in pulling out their gun out of fear for their life even though the other person has not [yet] made a specific threat of deadly force. Of course, pulling a gun is not guaranteed to diffuse the situation. It could make it go from bad to worse very quickly so you would need to be prepared for that. For that reason, there are probably very few situations in which I would consider doing so.

IANAL,
Brian

[KD5NRH]

Now I know and feel that I did the right thing since calling 911 while trying to evade some crazy redneck would have put me at greater risk

Spend $20 on a Bluetooth headset and learn to use voice dial.