group of thugs on my car/ what would you do?

[Oldgringo]

Hoi,

Assuming for a moment that you had gone through the steps and received your CHL and further assuming you were armed and you found these thugs of various dimension and culture on your vehicle as you were leaving wherever, what would Hoi Polloi do?

[Excaliber]

In my version the leader of the group is a clean cut 21 y/o frat boy closer to 155lbs, but I guess it doesn't really matter. I would again ask him to find elsewhere to hang out. If he keeps me from entering my vehicle by physically blocking my way I would consider that a physical threat. At that point I would be close enough to take a clear cell phone photo of the guy's face. He probably wouldn't like that and might even try to ge the phone from me, that would be a physical assault. Appropriate measures would have to be taken.

Hope I didn't leave you hanging too long.

A gang of 8 drunken frat boys who are feet from you would be on you like white on rice while you're holding your cell phone trying to take a picture. They'd leave you bloodied, bruised, and you'd be lucky if your phone wasn't smashed to smithereens and you weren't unconscious. But the frat boys probably would move on without messing with your ride.

If it was a less savory crowd which perhaps included a kid with some theft history, your car would be brutally keyed, your shoes and wallet gone, your phone smashed if old or gone if new, your glasses in shards, and you'd be lucky if someone else saw it and called 911 for you in time.

What makes you think that you and your cell phone could take on a group of 8 drunks who are feet from you and intent on causing you bodily harm? There wouldn't be enough time to blink and even if you could unholster, draw, and fire in time, they'd hit you from behind in seconds. And that's assuming they don't have weapons of their own.

That is simply too many and too close, and the preposterous idea that you'd be using both your hands to snap a pic when you understand they'll be coming at you swinging seems like a particularly bad idea.

Just to clarify, I prefer brown rice, I don't wear glasses, and can snap a photo with one hand.
I never said I would allow myslef to get surrounded by a group of thugs by walking into the middle of their group. I may be irrational but I'm not dumb.

You wouldn't have to walk into a group to get surrounded by thugs. All you'd have to do is stand close enough to take an identifiable picture for a couple of seconds while the group's "wing men" execute their well practiced flanking maneuver for situations like this. By the time you figured out what was going on, you'd be the unhappy "man in the middle" with the group leader at bad breath range in your face, the guys behind you making sure you don't get froggy while they figure out what to do with you, and the rest of the group gathered all around making suggestions that you probably wouldn't find comforting.

[Carry-a-Kimber]

What I was trying to get across is that I know my limits. The OP never mentioned a 275lb meth head or a 155lb frat boy, I would have to determine appropriate action based apon the actual group I come across. If the group of "thugs" were just drunk kids, I would have a different approach than if they were hopped up gym rat meth heads.
Guess I shoulda just suggested sniping them from the rooftop.

[Hoi Polloi]

Guess I shoulda just suggested sniping them from the rooftop.

Now that's my kinda thinking!

Hoi,

Assuming for a moment that you had gone through the steps and received your CHL and further assuming you were armed and you found these thugs of various dimension and culture on your vehicle as you were leaving wherever, what would Hoi Polloi do?

She would go right back from whence she came hopefully without ever being noticed, preferably behind a closed or locked door, preferably around other people, preferably out of their immediate sight, and she would assess the situation from there.

First, wait it out for a little while. Try to get pictures, descriptions, and other details of the people.

Second, call my husband and ask for advice.

Third, find something to pass the time as I waited more.

Fourth, call the police and explain that the group included people who put me in fear for my life as I approached, that they looked under the influence and beyond reason, that I had waited for x length of time but was concerned as the day was waning and the streets were becoming more deserted putting me in even greater fear of what they would do to a single female, that they were blocking my entrance to my only escape route, that I was fearful that they were waiting to mug me, etc.

Fifth, wait for the police. If they refuse to help, call my husband and ask him to come get me, which he would have offered to do when I talked to him sometime back. Or, if another friend is considerably closer, follow up with a call to the friend with the same request, whom I've probably already spoken to and made contingency plans with after talking to my husband.

And if I was traveling alone in a city in which I didn't know a soul, I'd feel a little silly, but I'd resort to calling a taxi cab and asking them to come right up to the door to pick me up. I'd tip well and try to get pictures as we drove by. I'd feel pretty angry later, but I'd be happy that I didn't put my life in danger or take a chance.

That's most likely what I would do.

[Excaliber]

Folks, this whole discussion has been difficult because it involves discussion of the behavior of criminals in groups. This is a topic that is very seldom discussed at length in CHL circles, and when the topic comes up, so do lots of misconceptions and bad assumptions.

In my LEO days, I very often dealt with group situations. Here are some of the things I learned (sometimes the hard way):

1. Always call for backup. Never approach an apparently hostile group alone.
2. Don't take a position that doesn't have a clear and unobstructed escape route.
3. Watch for flanking and escape cutoff maneuvers. Not all group members may be in the obvious cluster.
4. Don't take physical action against a group member until you have enough force present to protect the contact officers and ensure a safe extraction.
5. If you know physical action must be taken (e.g., arrest of a wanted felon) bring overwhelming force. On the street, there's no shame in surrender when it's obvious the resources are there to make it happen anyway. It's when there's doubt about which side the balance of force falls on that things get dangerous. Safety lies in removing the temptation to fight.
6. Remember that all individuals are much more dangerous in the group than they are alone. They can be easily led to do things they'd never attempt alone.

Remember, these are the guidelines armed, trained, well equipped and experienced police officers used.

With all this being said, the simple fact is if a single individual finds a hostile group occupying his vehicle and a polite request doesn't get good results, there is no one man tactic I know of that is likely to turn out well. "Tactical repositioning" (backing off) without further confrontation and securing appropriate additional resources to address the issue is without question the best option for having things come out reasonably well.

[Oldgringo]

Thank you, Excaliber, for guiding us through this discussion and sharing your experiences and training.

The scenario presented by the OP is a virtual no-win situation for the average Joe/Jane on the street whether armed or not. Call the police, they'll come by sooner or later. Call 'em again, it's their job to "serve and protect". (BTW, no one mentioned setting off the Fire Alarm in the building in which you were trapped )

[Excaliber]

Thank you, Excaliber, for guiding us through this discussion and sharing your experiences and training.

The scenario presented by the OP is a virtual no-win situation for the average Joe/Jane on the street whether armed or not. Call the police, they'll come by sooner or later. Call 'em again, it's their job to "serve and protect". (BTW, no one mentioned setting off the Fire Alarm in the building in which you were trapped )

OldGringo, if I've been of service, it's been my pleasure.

[Barbi Q]

Guess I shoulda just suggested sniping them from the rooftop.

Now that's my kinda thinking!

Looking at the big picture, that's not a bad idea. A wise old man once said the best defense is a good offense.

Whether it's international terrorists like Al Qaeda or domestic terrorists like gangs, sniping is a good tool.


God Bless Snipers

[Bob in Big D]

"As the night wears on and the people become drunk"

In my younger days I was always very aware of what was going on around me. As I got older my vision has narrowed and my senses are not nearly as sharp as they once were. You were aware too, but did not act on it at a time that could have saved your car from getting dinged up. YOU should have moved your car to a better place before the people became drunk. Awareness of what is going on arround you has been rekindled in me since I took my CHL class so that once again I am more aware of what is going on arround me.
After the 4 males and 3 women claimed your car as their resting place for the night, the only way they would move is if the LEO's asked/told them. There is no way the 4 males would let you tell them anything in front of their women. At that point calling the police was your only option....... unless you have a death wish.
Good luck and I hope you don't have any more problems.

[bh28]

Perhaps you can get a video camera with DVR recording and point it at your parking place.
If you think you see weapons tell the 911 operator that.
When (If?) the police arrive file a trespassing complaint.
Or you could wait for them to leave, go to their houe and kick their car. Not very advisable.

I reported some people who were stealing a car in front of my shop in mid-afternoon. The cops arrived an hour later and I showed them the video including the faces of the thieves, the act of breaking into the car, the car leaving and the plate of the car the thieves arrived in. Nothing done.
I had a thief brek in to my shop at night. Called the cops when the alarm went off. Saw the thief on computer from home and have a great shot of his face. Cops arrived, I tracked the thief on video and was on the phone with the cops at the scene telling them where he was. No puirsuit. No followup other than a report the next day. The cops were gone by the time I got there and the thief was one block over waiting for us all to leave so he could go back in. Called cops again. No response since "he wasn'tdoing anything". Well, he WAS going over the things he stole from me on the hood of "his" car to see how much he got. I tried to ride over and he took off. I stayed till next day.
What do they need, us to chase the bad guys down ourselves? Very frustrating.

[wally775]

Well I guess you could call 911 and tell them there are unscrupulous individuals
Outside making trouble and defacing your car.
911 informs you they won’t be there for an hour.
You hang up and they continue.
Thirty minutes later you call 911 again and explain the situation once more.
911 once more says it will be an hour.
You tell 911 you will have to go outside and if there is any shooting not to worry
we will all be here when you arrive.
Five minutes later when the police show up and say
“You said there was going to be a shooting”
Tell them “you said you were going to be here in an hour”


Just kidding. Thought you handled it the best way you could.

[grim-bob]

Assuming the police aren't coming anytime soon and you want to give them a nudge without directly confronting them. Don't remember seeing this idea but it seems the perfect time to use a panic alarm on your car's remote (assuming it has one). Most people like this don't like any extra attention and having a panic alarm going off repeatedly draws just that. They may assume the alarm is from them bumping the car since you are out of sight in the building. The chance of them damaging the car out of anger is still there but not as likely to occur or at least occur to a lesser degree since they aren't teaching "you" a lesson.

[Excaliber]

Assuming the police aren't coming anytime soon and you want to give them a nudge without directly confronting them. Don't remember seeing this idea but it seems the perfect time to use a panic alarm on your car's remote (assuming it has one). Most people like this don't like any extra attention and having a panic alarm going off repeatedly draws just that. They may assume the alarm is from them bumping the car since you are out of sight in the building. The chance of them damaging the car out of anger is still there but not as likely to occur or at least occur to a lesser degree since they aren't teaching "you" a lesson.

If your car alarm will respond to a signal from your key fob at the distance required, I'd say this tactic is worth a try.

It could even be used by strolling nearby while paying the group no attention whatsoever and triggering the fob from your pocket.

Clever thought. I like it.

[tacticool]

YOU should have moved your car to a better place before the people became drunk.

Right. And people who get mugged or raped at night should have left before it got dark.

[7075-T7]

I'm glad that this was brought up, I've never thought about this situation and now am better prepared for it.