group of thugs on my car/ what would you do?

[Hoi Polloi]

If he goes up and pushes one of them off his car and the thug falls on the pavement and dies, then he could get convicted of manslaughter like the guy in Salinas, CA.

The guy in Salinas, CA was not convicted of manslaughter. He was convicted of misdemeanor assault.

Orion Christopher Moore pulled into a gas station where a panhandler asked to wash his windshield. Orion told him no, probably several times. When Orion was in the gas station, he saw the panhandler going towards his car to wash his windshield anyway. Some reports say that he saw the man approaching Orion's girlfriend to ask her. Angry that the man was persisting, Orion, IIRC, charged from the gas station and across the parking lot and knocked the elderly man to the ground, killing him on impact.

Orion eventually plead no contest to a charge of assault with force likely to cause great bodily injury, with an enhancement of causing great bodily injury. The judge reduced it from a felony to a misdemeanor at sentencing. He was put on three years of misdemeanor probation and is required to work 400 hours of community service.

In the CA situation, Orion did not fear for his life or safety or even for his property. He was being harassed, but all it would have taken to permanently end the issue was to drive away. He chose out of anger and/or indignation to use force instead. In the OP, he expressed that it was nighttime, that a group of 8 people was resting on his car which angered him but they were not causing any damage, he had no pressing need for them to move immediately and he was fearful of what they'd do if he approached them, so he chose to scream at them from a distance with his gun at low ready and his phone at hand. Unlike in the CA case, they then proceeded to do physical damage to his car before leaving and since the OP and his car will frequently be at the same location and they now have a connection between the two along with anger over it, the situation could be carried forward into the future indefinitely.

Because no immediate damage was being done, no real fear of immediate theft or destruction was present though the potential for it was greatly increased, and because the likely consequences of confronting them greatly outweighed any potential gain, the OP's safest way of protecting himself--which must come first--along with his property--including what is in his storefront/office, which could become a target--was to call the police and wait for them to roll by and run the group off. Reporting a group of suspicious persons loitering after dark and keeping him from being able to leave as they were physically on his car, putting him in fear of attack, theft, or reprisal, would be acted on pretty quickly unless there were several major things going on elsewhere in the city. Even then, he would have the time to get better descriptions of the people and he would be able to protect himself and his property with force if anything escalated, or they would move on of their own accord, probably never to be seen again.

[Excaliber]

I agree with the advice given however, and should have called police instantly. It is true that i might have backlash from this and would normally think that way but its true in a high stress situation that you lose alot of your abilities. I feel like i acted poorly in this situation and am thankful for all of your insight.

And that, my friend, shows a teachable attitude. Given the massive frustration of the whole thing, it would be easy to see why you originally reacted the way you did. I might well have done so myself. But the value of this thread is that we all get to check our attitudes at the door and learn from your experience, without having to suffer any painful lessons.

Be safe out there, and I hope that aren't the subject of any revenge actions.

Well said, TAM.

Thanks to ironsights' post, everyone on the Forum has had a chance to think this situation through and evaluate the likely outcome and consequences of a whole range of options. Afterwards, everyone ends up refining his own "library" of contingency plans that can be drawn upon when such situations come up instead of facing the same dilemma as the OP did when he faced the incident in his post. From one man's painful experience and his willingness to share it comes productive learning for many.

This is a very good thing.

[WildBill]

If he goes up and pushes one of them off his car and the thug falls on the pavement and dies, then he could get convicted of manslaughter like the guy in Salinas, CA.

The guy in Salinas, CA was not convicted of manslaughter. He was convicted of misdemeanor assault.

You are correct. He was originally charged with homocide. Mr. Moore plead guilty to a felony assault charge and the judge reduced it to a misdemeanor during sentencing.

I don't want to hijack this thread, because there is already one on this subject. I was using it as an example of how a "simple" situation such as "a push" can escalate into a really bad situation.

[Oldgringo]

If he goes up and pushes one of them off his car and the thug falls on the pavement and dies, then he could get convicted of manslaughter like the guy in Salinas, CA.

The guy in Salinas, CA was not convicted of manslaughter. He was convicted of misdemeanor assault.

You are correct. He was originally charged with homocide. Mr. Moore plead guilty to a felony assault charge and the judge reduced it to a misdemeanor during sentencing.

I don't want to hijack this thread, because there is already one on this subject. I was using it as an example of how a "simple" situation such as "a push" can escalate into a really bad situation.

Right you are.

The topic question was. "what would YOU do" (in Texas), not what would the lawyers do or what is case law in California or some other weird place.

[Cobra Medic]

I may have missed something but I understood that the OP was concerned about damage to his vehicle? If I'm hearing you correctly, you propose shooting holes in the OP's ride to rid it of vermin?

A suppressed 22 with subsonic ammo is good medicine for vermin.

A bolt action 22 rifle with CBs is nearly as quiet but doesn't have as much energy.

[wheelgun1958]

I would have called the police first, without confronting them. All confronting them does is irritate them, they do their deads and leave before the police get there. If you call the police first, don't let them see you, then the police are the witness that they were actually on your car, and if there is any damage, even if you can't get money out of the thugs for repairs, your insurance will have another witness.

Now, as for legal, once they started doing damage to the car, this is criminal mischief. If it is happening at night, legally you can use deadly force. HOWEVER, that would be a dumb thing to do IMO. Taking a life over someone doing repairable damage to your car is not what carrying is about. Besides, you will have a lot less hassle and paperwork to do on the car damage than you will a shooting investigation.

IANAL, BTW

Threat of deadly force is not deadly force. PC 9.04

[dicion]

Threat of deadly force is not deadly force. PC 9.04

Maybe, but it is intentionally un-concealing your weapon.

Also, IIRC, According to something Charles Cotton wrote before, there is some case law here, and it doesn't exactly work that way for real.
Let me see if I can dig that up.

Edit:
Found some of the Discussion from Mr. Cotton about it.
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 62&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27187" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 39#p433639" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Cobra Medic]

Threat of deadly force is not deadly force. PC 9.04

Maybe, but it is intentionally un-concealing your weapon.

So use a shotgun.

Or that 22 rifle from the rooftop.

[SlowDave]

If a "group" of uninvited strangers decide to make themselves at home on the hood of my truck, I am not waiting an hour or so for the police to come and tell them to move along.

So you're gonna....?

1. Go with the proven technique of the OP and get your car dinged up and then go home with them knowing your identity and workplace?
2. Go confront them and win or maybe die that night over car dings?
3. Just open fire pre-emptively and hope you kill them all before they get you and then take off and hope the cops don't figure out who you are?
4. #3 but hang around and pay for the ensuing legal battle to show that you had the right to do it? Maybe $100k vs. the $1k to fix the car.

Okay, a bit tongue-in-cheek, but realistically, we're in a situation here with a multitude of bad responses to choose from. Least bad seems to be the one you've ruled out, IMHO.

[Carry-a-Kimber]

If a "group" of uninvited strangers decide to make themselves at home on the hood of my truck, I am not waiting an hour or so for the police to come and tell them to move along.

So you're gonna....?

1. Go with the proven technique of the OP and get your car dinged up and then go home with them knowing your identity and workplace?
2. Go confront them and win or maybe die that night over car dings?
3. Just open fire pre-emptively and hope you kill them all before they get you and then take off and hope the cops don't figure out who you are?
4. #3 but hang around and pay for the ensuing legal battle to show that you had the right to do it? Maybe $100k vs. the $1k to fix the car.

Okay, a bit tongue-in-cheek, but realistically, we're in a situation here with a multitude of bad responses to choose from. Least bad seems to be the one you've ruled out, IMHO.

I answered this with a subsequent post.

I would ask politly and respectfully for them to find elsewhere to sit. Whatever happens after that would be up to them.

I would probably get in my truck and move it. If they tried to keep me from entering my truck that is their prerogative.

[Excaliber]

If a "group" of uninvited strangers decide to make themselves at home on the hood of my truck, I am not waiting an hour or so for the police to come and tell them to move along.

So you're gonna....?

1. Go with the proven technique of the OP and get your car dinged up and then go home with them knowing your identity and workplace?
2. Go confront them and win or maybe die that night over car dings?
3. Just open fire pre-emptively and hope you kill them all before they get you and then take off and hope the cops don't figure out who you are?
4. #3 but hang around and pay for the ensuing legal battle to show that you had the right to do it? Maybe $100k vs. the $1k to fix the car.

Okay, a bit tongue-in-cheek, but realistically, we're in a situation here with a multitude of bad responses to choose from. Least bad seems to be the one you've ruled out, IMHO.

I answered this with a subsequent post.

I would ask politly and respectfully for them to find elsewhere to sit. Whatever happens after that would be up to them.

I would probably get in my truck and move it. If they tried to keep me from entering my truck that is their prerogative.

All the easy parts have now been covered. This is where it gets interesting.

What's the next move if they act true to form - they all laugh uproariously and the 275 lb prison tattooed spokesman for the group gets up, leans his back against the drivers' door, folds his arms, and smirks?

Please don't leave us hanging in suspense.

[Carry-a-Kimber]

In my version the leader of the group is a clean cut 21 y/o frat boy closer to 155lbs, but I guess it doesn't really matter. I would again ask him to find elsewhere to hang out. If he keeps me from entering my vehicle by physically blocking my way I would consider that a physical threat. At that point I would be close enough to take a clear cell phone photo of the guy's face. He probably wouldn't like that and might even try to ge the phone from me, that would be a physical assault. Appropriate measures would have to be taken.

Hope I didn't leave you hanging too long.

[Hoi Polloi]

In my version the leader of the group is a clean cut 21 y/o frat boy closer to 155lbs, but I guess it doesn't really matter. I would again ask him to find elsewhere to hang out. If he keeps me from entering my vehicle by physically blocking my way I would consider that a physical threat. At that point I would be close enough to take a clear cell phone photo of the guy's face. He probably wouldn't like that and might even try to ge the phone from me, that would be a physical assault. Appropriate measures would have to be taken.

Hope I didn't leave you hanging too long.

A gang of 8 drunken frat boys who are feet from you would be on you like white on rice while you're holding your cell phone trying to take a picture. They'd leave you bloodied, bruised, and you'd be lucky if your phone wasn't smashed to smithereens and you weren't unconscious. But the frat boys probably would move on without messing with your ride.

If it was a less savory crowd which perhaps included a kid with some theft history, your car would be brutally keyed, your shoes and wallet gone, your phone smashed if old or gone if new, your glasses in shards, and you'd be lucky if someone else saw it and called 911 for you in time.

What makes you think that you and your cell phone could take on a group of 8 drunks who are feet from you and intent on causing you bodily harm? There wouldn't be enough time to blink and even if you could unholster, draw, and fire in time, they'd hit you from behind in seconds. And that's assuming they don't have weapons of their own.

That is simply too many and too close, and the preposterous idea that you'd be using both your hands to snap a pic when you understand they'll be coming at you swinging seems like a particularly bad idea.

[Carry-a-Kimber]

In my version the leader of the group is a clean cut 21 y/o frat boy closer to 155lbs, but I guess it doesn't really matter. I would again ask him to find elsewhere to hang out. If he keeps me from entering my vehicle by physically blocking my way I would consider that a physical threat. At that point I would be close enough to take a clear cell phone photo of the guy's face. He probably wouldn't like that and might even try to ge the phone from me, that would be a physical assault. Appropriate measures would have to be taken.

Hope I didn't leave you hanging too long.

A gang of 8 drunken frat boys who are feet from you would be on you like white on rice while you're holding your cell phone trying to take a picture. They'd leave you bloodied, bruised, and you'd be lucky if your phone wasn't smashed to smithereens and you weren't unconscious. But the frat boys probably would move on without messing with your ride.

If it was a less savory crowd which perhaps included a kid with some theft history, your car would be brutally keyed, your shoes and wallet gone, your phone smashed if old or gone if new, your glasses in shards, and you'd be lucky if someone else saw it and called 911 for you in time.

What makes you think that you and your cell phone could take on a group of 8 drunks who are feet from you and intent on causing you bodily harm? There wouldn't be enough time to blink and even if you could unholster, draw, and fire in time, they'd hit you from behind in seconds. And that's assuming they don't have weapons of their own.

That is simply too many and too close, and the preposterous idea that you'd be using both your hands to snap a pic when you understand they'll be coming at you swinging seems like a particularly bad idea.

Just to clarify, I prefer brown rice, I don't wear glasses, and can snap a photo with one hand.
I never said I would allow myslef to get surrounded by a group of thugs by walking into the middle of their group. I may be irrational but I'm not dumb.

[Excaliber]

In my version the leader of the group is a clean cut 21 y/o frat boy closer to 155lbs, but I guess it doesn't really matter. I would again ask him to find elsewhere to hang out. If he keeps me from entering my vehicle by physically blocking my way I would consider that a physical threat. At that point I would be close enough to take a clear cell phone photo of the guy's face. He probably wouldn't like that and might even try to ge the phone from me, that would be a physical assault. Appropriate measures would have to be taken.

Hope I didn't leave you hanging too long.

A gang of 8 drunken frat boys who are feet from you would be on you like white on rice while you're holding your cell phone trying to take a picture. They'd leave you bloodied, bruised, and you'd be lucky if your phone wasn't smashed to smithereens and you weren't unconscious. But the frat boys probably would move on without messing with your ride.

If it was a less savory crowd which perhaps included a kid with some theft history, your car would be brutally keyed, your shoes and wallet gone, your phone smashed if old or gone if new, your glasses in shards, and you'd be lucky if someone else saw it and called 911 for you in time.

What makes you think that you and your cell phone could take on a group of 8 drunks who are feet from you and intent on causing you bodily harm? There wouldn't be enough time to blink and even if you could unholster, draw, and fire in time, they'd hit you from behind in seconds. And that's assuming they don't have weapons of their own.

That is simply too many and too close, and the preposterous idea that you'd be using both your hands to snap a pic when you understand they'll be coming at you swinging seems like a particularly bad idea.

I was trying to encourage you to think through a full sequence of your actions and a realistic set of likely reactions from the group being confronted until you reached a resolution. We didn't get all the way there, but we did move forward a couple of steps.

Taking pictures with the cell phone and then taking "appropriate action" if someone in the group made an effort to liberate your phone would get you to just about the same spot as the scenario described in an earlier post where the car owner pushes one of the drunks off the fender.

Hoi has graphically described how this would be likely to play out on the street with drunken frat boys. The meth fueled gang banger version led by the 275 lb. guy with the prison tats has a much less happy ending.

The point is that stuff that sounds downright impressive when kicked around at the local watering hole can get you stomped right quick in the street.

I would strongly suggest thinking through all the steps and likely responses in a plausible start to finish situation management sequence before trying this stuff for real. I think you'll find that what you end up with that way is a much better and safer plan.