Why carry a .40 or.45

[Excaliber]

There were some links posted somewhere on this site here is one.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There was another with drawings of wound cavity that was good also. Just can't find it.

Thanks for the link. I'm still reading, but this one statement really struck me. "The impact of the bullet on the body is no more than the recoil of the weapon." If you think about it, that makes sense. Newton's law says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The recoil you feel will be the same as the impact of the bullet felt by your adversary. If you think about the recoil you feel when you're shooting, that isn't enough to knock you over or even cause you to lose your balance, unless it's a very large caliber weapon and you are unprepared for the recoil.

That is essentially correct, although if you want to get technical some energy is absorbed by the inertia of the weapon itself and the cycling of the slide in a semiauto. The recoil you feel is also spread over your hands, arms, and shoulders whereas the impact of the bullet is concentrated on a small area. However, the impact of most pistol rounds is not nearly enough to physically knock an adult down. If they carried that much energy, the shooter would find himself on his butt as well.

A rough equivalent would be that a torso hit with a .45 slug might feel much like a punch if you were in a frame of mind to notice and make such observations. Some folks who are doing things that make it necessary to shoot them are not, and it's not unusual for them to show no immediate reaction at all while they keep doing whatever it was they were doing just then.

The laws of physics don't have exceptions for bullets.

[Zoomie]

The danger of this kind of thinking is that you will be unprepared for an adversary who is hit by your caliber of choice and keeps fighting. If you are truly expecting a "one shot stop", what will you do when that does not occur? Will you hesitate? That hesitation could get you killed.

This is why you don't stop shooting until there is an obvious and dramatic effect on the target.

[pops1982]

Maybe I'm just chicken but if I was breaking in a house and saw a gun of any caliber pointed at me or heard gun fire I would definately be reversing course and getting out of there. I mean just hearing a shell jacked into a pump shotgun would give me (the robber) a heart attack with no shots fired.
That being said I like a 40 s&w myself.

[GhostTX]

This is one of the better things I've read on this subject:

From FrontSight:

...
You want big holes in your opponent and you want him bleeding through and through. That means you want large, heavy bullets that penetrate.
Pretty simple, wouldn’t you say?
Yes, it is pretty simple and that’s the point.
No need to overthink it.
Focus on your ability, not the equipment, because it is YOUR ABILITY to place the rounds you choose to carry in your gun that will determine whether you live or die in a gun fight.
OK, I know you still want recommendations. Here they are. Don’t get too hung up on them. A gun in any caliber is better than no gun at all.
.45 ACP. Our grandfathers knew it in World War II and our grandfathers’ grandsons are figuring it out again in Iraq. A .45 stops ‘em best.
.40 S&W is the next best choice and in most handguns allows more magazine capacity compared to the .45ACP.
.44 Special, .357 Magnum, .357 Sig, and 9mm Plus P all run near third place.
.38 Special and 9mm are in distant fourth place. You can plan on delivering a cranio-ocular shot after two to the chest to end the fight with these calibers.
.380, .32, .25, and .22 -- Don’t even bother shooting your opponent in the chest with these. Your standard response with these pocket pistol rounds is two to three rounds to between the mustache and eyebrows (cranio-ocular cavity).
...
So why not a .44 Magnum, .50AE, 10mm. etc? Because these guns require bigger frames due to greater chamber pressure generated and larger cartridge size, they tend to be very hard to conceal. These big guns, although they have slightly better stopping power than the .45 and .40, do so at the expense of portability, recoil control and practical use.
...

http://frontsight.com/newsletter/html/1 ... llets.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[baldeagle]

So why not a .44 Magnum, .50AE, 10mm. etc? Because these guns require bigger frames due to greater chamber pressure generated and larger cartridge size, they tend to be very hard to conceal. These big guns, although they have slightly better stopping power than the .45 and .40, do so at the expense of portability, recoil control and practical use.

This strikes me as a very odd statement. The .50 S&W has more than three times the velocity of a .45 acp cartridge and 50% (or more) higher weight. To say that it has "slightly better stopping power than the .45" is sort of like saying a Ferrari is slightly faster than a Corvette. It makes me wonder if the Frontsight guys have a clue what they're talking about.

This YouTube video should disabuse them of that notion.

[youtube][/youtube]

Reading this thread has made me realize that there are plenty of opinions about calibers but very little actual knowledge.

[danpaw]

A Ferarri is not slightly faster than a Corvette. I'm not sure any Ferrarri is as fast as a new Corvette ZR-1.

[jester]

And .50 AE <> .500 S&W Magnum

[glbedd53]

Hard to find good comparisons between Ferrari Enzo and Corvette ZR1. From what I've seen it looks like the Enzo might be a little faster top speed but the ZR1 is faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile. No two road tests say the same thing and Chevrolet doesn't admit what the ZR1s top speed is but even a Z-06 will go 200 and a ZR1 has a lot more horsepower.

[baldeagle]

A Ferarri is not slightly faster than a Corvette. I'm not sure any Ferrarri is as fast as a new Corvette ZR-1.

Z06 - 198mph - ZR1 - 205mph
Ferrari Enzo - 217mph

Should I have used the Veyron (253mph) to make the point?

[baldeagle]

Hard to find good comparisons between Ferrari Enzo and Corvette ZR1. From what I've seen it looks like the Enzo might be a little faster top speed but the ZR1 is faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile. No two road tests say the same thing and Chevrolet doesn't admit what the ZR1s top speed is but even a Z-06 will go 200 and a ZR1 has a lot more horsepower.

How about this?

[glbedd53]

Yep, kinda like I said. Ferarri faster top speed, Corvette faster acceleration.

[CC Italian]

Well I do not really agree with that front sight info. "don't even bother shooting an attacker in the chest with these". Come on, give me a break almost anybody with 2-3 shots of .380 or .32 H&R to the chest are going to be on the ground pretty quick. It might be an old article but I really don't think you can even put a 10mm into the same category as a .50AE or even .44 mag. Has this guy ever shot a 10mm? The recoil of one is far less then a .357 mag, .44mag or .50AE!!! It’s a snappy round more like a .357 sig not a .44mag with hot loads. In fact there was a recent thread by a new Glock 10mm owner who was surprised how controllable the round was. Many on this board conceal a G29 or G30 with few problems. They just dress around it. Go and shoot a Ruger sp-101 with hot .357 mag loads and then shoot a 10mm with hot loads in something like a G29. It won't even be close. Many 10mm guys think the round didn’t get enough credit. I am starting to think it got to much credit and people blew it way out of proportion and started treating it like a .44mag.

If you want to carry a revolver a .357 will be hard to beat. The next step up is the .41 mag and then .44 but I have shot both and I wouldn't carry one unless I was in bear country. It’s kind of like when someone tells me that a 12 gauge is leaps and bounds better then a 20 gauge for home protection. If I can shoot a 200 pound hog or dear dead with one shot from a 20 then will a 12 gauge be that much better against a human? Same as saying a .44 mag is not enough for protection and I should go to the 500 S&W magnum. Both are over kill!! Of course I know I have said this before on other posts but if it’s good enough to kill a 200-300 pound animal with a thicker hide or skin then why would it not be for a human attacker. I have seen .357 mag, .40 S&W, .45acp and 10mm all stop boar and dear in thier tracks. Could a 9mm do it? Of course it could but deer don't usually have guns and shoot back so why chance it.

I think if we did a poll most of us would agree that a 9mm is more then acceptable for personal protection with good hollow points against any non comic book human attacker. Obviously like any gun you have to be able to control it and shot it accurately. I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t carry the biggest fastest round that you can shoot proficiently in a handgun and I think almost all grown men and a lot of women can shot a .40 or better in a semi-auto with proper practice.

[Texas Dan Mosby]

stopping power

...is a myth.

PERIOD.

I have not shot people with handgun rounds, however, I HAVE shot people with rifle rounds in the 5.56 variety, and have seen the results of 7.62 / .308.

Humans "stop" as a result of gun fire due to 1 of 2 reasons...

1. Mental / psychological reasons.
2. Physical reasons.

For number 1, they "stop" / fall down because they realize they have been shot, are still alive, and stop / fall in hopes of NOT getting shot anymore. They are still capable of resisting, but lack the motivation / mindset to continue to fight.

For number 2, they "stop" / fall down because some part of their structure has been damaged enough that they are no longer physically capable of either standing up or maintaining the fight. This is caused by either structural bone damage, circulatory damage, or CNS damage. CNS damage is the ONLY guaranteed instant physical show stopper. When you cut off the communication to the brain through damage to the brain or spine, the body does not function. Circulatory damage, even a heart shot, still gives time to resist until oxygen is depleted from the brain. Seconds may not seem like much time....until you are getting shot at. Structural damage to bone mass, like femurs, pelvis, fib / tibs, can put an individual down, however, they may still have the will to resist.

Round selection or shot placement has little to do with number 1, however, round selection and shot placement DOES influence number 2.

A defensive gun SHOULD be geared toward achieving number 2 imo. I want a round that has good potential to stop a threat physically if it doesn't mentally. A round that can punch through bone and tissue without having a significant effect on trajectory stands a better chance of penetrating key areas within the body that can incapacitate and stop a potential threat. This means punching through arms, ribs, and whatever else may need to be penetrated, and still have enough mass and velocity to damage CNS or key circulatory systems within the body.

NOBODY wants to get shot...by ANY firearm. A .22 short can stop an attack just as easily as a .45 long colt if the threat lacks the will to resist.

However...

To STOP a determined threat, you must have a round capable of reaching and significantly damaging the systems within the body that will immediately incapacitate the threat. This favors the larger and more powerful rounds as they tend to have the mass and velocity to both penetrate and maintain their trajectory. That's why I carry .45.

Defensive approaches have pros and cons just like pretty much everything. Smaller arms are more convenient, however, they lack some potential effectiveness. Can they do the job? Sure.

Larger arms are not as convenient, however, they provide a greater deal of POTENTIAL effectiveness. Would you ever actually NEED this effectiveness? Who knows...

Learn to fight with what you have and maximize the effectiveness of what you DO carry, and understand the limitations of yourself and your firearm of choice. That's about the best you can do.

[Keith B]

Very good synopsis Texas Dan, and right on target (pun intended. LOL)