Non-lethal ammunition

[BroTyler]

Hey everyone, just got my CHL today. I appreciate being armed, but it seems like it's still very difficult to justify even the most justifiable of shootings. We've all read case law and seen court cases that have gone one way or the other, but I feel like if I'm ever given reason to pull the trigger, my career as a health professional could grind to a quick halt.

I was looking at the Taurus Judge as a possible daily carry, and I know one of the selling points is its ability to utilize different kinds of ammunition. Would it be a terrible idea to load the first few shots as ratshot or something similar? And do you face more court cases/charges if the offender survives (after being hit with non-lethal ammo)?

[psijac]

Hey everyone, just got my CHL today. I appreciate being armed, but it seems like it's still very difficult to justify even the most justifiable of shootings. We've all read case law and seen court cases that have gone one way or the other, but I feel like if I'm ever given reason to pull the trigger, my career as a health professional could grind to a quick halt.

I was looking at the Taurus Judge as a possible daily carry, and I know one of the selling points is its ability to utilize different kinds of ammunition. Would it be a terrible idea to load the first few shots as ratshot or something similar? And do you face more court cases/charges if the offender survives (after being hit with non-lethal ammo)?

Terrible idea. Worst Case scenario your rat shot does not stop your attack before he can do lethal damage to you or your loved ones. Second worst scenario your rat shot kills someone when you did not intend it to do so, even "non-lethal" tasers have killed people. Also you have to realize the psychological implications. If you loaded non-lethal rounds then your would naturally consider the gun a non lethal toy. Over time the first rule (Treat Every Weapon as if it were loaded) would erode making very dangerous to anyo and everyone around you. Maybe that's the worst case scenario.

[BroTyler]

I suppose I'm afraid of what's happening to Jerome Ersland, an Oklahoma pharmacist. He defended himself and his techs inside a pharmacy by shooting an offender in the head and probably would have been justified up to that point. However, for reasons unknown, after coming back from chasing a second perpetrator, he got out another gun and shot the wounded one in the stomach a few times.

If he had stopped at the first shot (wounding the first offender in the head and scaring the other one off), would he likely still face civil charges? The family of course claims he was a good kid who would never harm a fly.

I ask these questions so that I know better what goes along with making use of the right to defend ourselves.

[Skooter]

First off, if you find yourself in a situation forced to use your weapon, the predicted outcome should be either it's either "me" or "you" going in the body bag tonight. Shooting guns out of the BG's hands, leg shots, bird/rat shot rounds, warning shots or intentional non-lethal shots only increase the odds in the BG's favor. There are no mulligans in these situations. If you're worried about grinding your career to a quick halt because you take out a BG, think about your life and career if the BG wins; it’s game over for you. I would rather be judged by 12 rather than carried by 6.

Now about the Judge:
I own one myself. The Judge is a bit bulky gun for daily carry. I use it strictly for home protection. I load mine strategically with the following rounds;

Round #1 000’ Buck (3-38 cal disks) Anticipating that you just woke me up and my aim might not be so good.
Round #2 000’ Buck (3-38 cal disks) Anticipating that you just woke me up and my aim might not be so good.
Round #3 45 Cal Cowboy Round I’m awake now and shot twice. These rounds can shoot through walls, couches & doors.
Round #4 45 Cal Cowboy Round I’m awake now and shot 3 times. These rounds can shoot through walls, couches & doors.
Round #5 45 Cal Personal Protection round. If you live through the first 4, this one will drop you like a rock.

[BroTyler]

I initially looked at a Taurus 738 TCP since it's so small, but I like the sense of safety I get from a revolver. I haven't shot a Judge yet, so that fact and your input will impact my decision.

[karl]

Rubber bullets, rat shot, and others would still be lethal force, no? If that's the case then why bother if the exact same charges can be filed? Like Skooter said, it's me or you.

[Skooter]

If you want to try shooting my Judge before you buy one you’re more than welcome to try mine. I live in Friendswood, TX and a member of PSC. Let me know if you want to go to the range and try it out. It’s a fun gun to shoot.

[Texas Dan Mosby]

I feel like if I'm ever given reason to pull the trigger, my career as a health professional could grind to a quick halt.

And if you fail to "pull the trigger" your career as a health professional could grind to a quick halt just as easily as a result of an attackers deadly force directed against you...

If you are not prepared to defend yourself with a firearm, than I would highly recommend that you don't carry a firearm, as it is absolutely useless without the will to use it in your defense. You need to think about that.

"Less than lethal" rounds are not a viable option for personal defense. Period.

[Texas Size 11]

I initially looked at a Taurus 738 TCP since it's so small, but I like the sense of safety I get from a revolver. I haven't shot a Judge yet, so that fact and your input will impact my decision.

I have a 738 and carry it in situations when I cannot carry my Glock 22. It is a nice little pocket carry gun. I have mine loaded with Hornaday Critical defense rounds and I feel comfortable that it could stop somebody if need be...the Judge seems a little big for everyday carry to me.

[MoJo]

Cops and military do not deploy "less lethal" ammunition without backup armed with "real" ammunition. If the LL ammo doesn't do the job you've got to have a second option FAST!

[Xaved]

in my opinion you'd be more likely to get ruined financially if you shot the BG and he survived since he could sue you in civil court for injury. if it's a justified shooting and the BG is dead, that's one less guy to sue you. although that doesn't stop his family from trying something in civil court either.

[08thunders]

If I ever use a gun in a fight, I plan to minimize the danger to innocents not minimize danger to criminals.

[bdickens]

There is no such thing as non-lethal ammunition.

[BroTyler]

That seems like a point of semantics. I appreciate the responses generated in this thread, though. I believe we should have the right to self-defense, but I also have to ensure I don't cripple myself and my family through civil cases if the need ever arises. Obviously, I'm still new to this, so I'm grateful to everyone for your help in my research.

[Excaliber]

Hey everyone, just got my CHL today. I appreciate being armed, but it seems like it's still very difficult to justify even the most justifiable of shootings. We've all read case law and seen court cases that have gone one way or the other, but I feel like if I'm ever given reason to pull the trigger, my career as a health professional could grind to a quick halt.

I was looking at the Taurus Judge as a possible daily carry, and I know one of the selling points is its ability to utilize different kinds of ammunition. Would it be a terrible idea to load the first few shots as ratshot or something similar? And do you face more court cases/charges if the offender survives (after being hit with non-lethal ammo)?

Loading "less lethal" ammunition in a personal protection gun is a lot like putting square wheels on your car so you won't go over the speed limit. It might meet that goal, but it cripples its utility for its design purpose as well.

If you have doubts about using deadly force for whatever reasons, I would suggest that you don't carry a deadly weapon until you resolve those issues.