Hypothetical Situation: At your favorite restaurant

[eddieconcarne]

This real-life scenario above is a tough one. When the guy comes to you, do you shoot him? Will he fire back and hit you or someone else at your table? Will the other gunman open fire into the crowd?

I am not passive, and I like to think I'd do something, but situations like the one above make it very difficult to a) know how you might react and b) come up with a plan that doesn't get someone else seriously injured. Even if I was carrying and reasonable sure I could deal with one of the bad guys when he came over to me, I wouldn't want to encourage the other shooter to start firing. Brazen, high-risk crimes like this are usually performed by those who don't mind taking lives themselves (in fact I wouldn't be surprised given how outnumbered they were if they hadn't already calculated that they might need to take one patron out just to make the point that they were serious). If I shot the one guy, but the other guy hurt someone, I think it would be a lot harder to deal with than if I simply handed over my valuables and had to replace some cash or a watch.

Very tough decisions, indeed.

[7075-T7]

saintkingdom, I hope to meet you someday so I will know who to stay away from. A CHL is not a license to act as a LEO or vigilante, Death Wish was a movie and trying to play a real life Charles Bronson is hazardous to the public, you should do some research on situational awareness.

From your comments it is apparent that you are itching to get your name into Armed Citizen, beware it very well may end up on an indictment issued by a Grand Jury instead.

I Second....

I also agree with wanting to maintain a perfect record of never drawing or using deadly force to stop a threat.

I don't see the ideaology of just itching to shoot someone, Police, Jury, and jail aside, I donno about you, but the bullets I carry are EX-PEN-SIVE, and unless someone is intent on harming me or one of my own, I'm not going to waste the cash (but seriously they are expensive and I DON'T want to have to fire upon another human)

[7075-T7]

Also, I don't know if it's been said or not but it warrants repeating.

Just remember that anything you post on the internet can and will be used against you in a court of law. It doesn't take a good lawyer to find your posts and put them in front of the jury in a murky shooting, and it doesn't take a good lawyer to prove that you were carrying with the intention of finding a fight. And that not good lawyer has a real good case for premeditation, and premeditation is NOT SELF DEFENSE. Then that not so competent lawyer has just pegged you of pre-meditated murder because you were carrying a gun, looking for a fight, you found one, and the other person is now deceased.

Goodbye freedom, goodbye life savings (civil court), and hello to your cell mate.

[bdickens]

Joe Horn.

[MojoTexas]

This is an interesting thought exercise, and it reminds me of the scene from Pulp Fiction where the diner gets robbed and Samuel L. Jackson's character ("Jules") pulls out his 1911 and gets into a stand-off with "Yolanda" and "Pumpkin".

I would like to think that I could remain that calm and cool and collected...ready to defend myself if things go really south, but not trying to be a hero either.

[mctowalot]

You just need a wallet like Mr. Jackson's. It'll give you powers a CHL badge could only dream about!

[MojoTexas]

You just need a wallet like Mr. Jackson's. It'll give you powers a CHL badge could only dream about!

You can buy the wallets... Just Google the infamous phrase along with the word "wallet" and you'll find a website that sells them. I'm not going to post a link out of respect for the forum rules.

MojoTexas

[Purplehood]

You're at your favorite mom and pop restaurant. The owner nods at you acknowledging that its nice to see you again. As you chow down on the amazing meatloaf and mashed potatoes n gravy things go south.

In walks a guy demanding cash from the old lady running the front. He's holding a handgun and his hands are shaking violently. You check him out and he may be on some sort of substances. He's obviously not done this before and he's anxious and fidgety.

You're cc'd with your trusty weapon of choice.

What would you do?

I would immediately hide my plate below the table in case things go even further south.

[Matt78665]

Call 911 if possible
Do nothing to cause further stress to the already nervous perp
Find a way to egress safely if possible
Do not draw your weapon unless you or your family is in imminent danger
Nothing in the cash register is worth a life

Matt

[Bob in Big D]

This should be pretty simple for both senerio's! Let them take the money, but if they starting hearding people to the back or if anyone gets shot, I will come up firing.

[TxFig]

It's been a while since I've been on this board. It's good to see that some of the same discussions are repeating themselves.

I believe that discussing scenarios like this are a GOOD thing. It forces those of us who choose to carry to mentally think about what we would, could, or should do in a given situation. And thinking about it AHEAD of time is essential - if you have to think about it for the first time as the situation is unfolding, you're too late.


As for this thread, I'm going to give a different point of view than most.

As others have said, there is alot of information that is missing in this scenario. But one thing that IS in this scenario is crystal clear - you have a BG who is willing to commit an armed robbery, in a public location, with lots of people around. This bit of information tells you right off the bat:
(1) it tells you that this BG is well beyond being a "first timer". This guy has guts and it isn't his first rodeo. Do not be mislead into the idea that this guy could be reasoned with.
(2) someone who is willing to go to THESE lengths is not someone to be trifle with. IF you pull your gun, you better be prepared to be the first shooter - and to end the threat with the first shot.

Wow-I own and carry a gun in order to protect my family and myself. Though I will use deadly force if necessary, it is my goal and desire to go my entire life without needing to do so. I believe that a concealed weapon is analogous to a life insurance policy; though extremely necessary, I don't think anyone here desires to use either.

This is really the point I was wanting to make by posting to this thread. I think the "life insurance policy" analogy is missing the target a bit. I prefer to think of me carrying a gun to be nearly identical to me "carrying a CPR card":

That is: I hope to never have to use it. But if I do have to use it, nothing else will do. Whats more - I learned CPR so I could save the life of someone else, both family and non-family members alike.



As I've indicated, this BG is not your "first timer kid who doesn't know what he's doing". This is EXACTLY the kind of person that is AT THE LEAST likely to turn to all of the patrons and begin getting their wallets & purses. It is also the kind of person that even if they don't kill the clerk/patrons today - they are just a hairbreath away from it.

Iow, this person is presenting a clear threat to life & property RIGHT NOW.

Thus, in this scenario - I would be far more inclined to take action rather than not take action.

[chasfm11]

At the risk of taking this long thread even further, I'd like to inject another real situation into the discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=37175

In it jackal858 says:

It was a Saturday night after a home Texas A&M Football game in College Station. Me and two female friends decided to go to Subway to get some sandwiches after we got home from the massive traffic jam that always occurs after the games are over. We went to the Subway on Southwest Parkway, which was just about 1/2 mile from my apartment at the time, and was a Subway that I frequented. We got our Sandwiches and went to sit down, and as my late grandfather always said "a good gun slinger never sits with his back to the door", and though I never had carried a gun, I tended to always do this anyways, so I positioned myself facing the door with my two friends sitting across at a table close to the register. We were just about to leave (around 12:30 AM), and right as I was about to get up I see a man wearing all black and a black ski mask with something in his hand came walking by the glass windows at the front of the store towards the door. Before he even got inside, I calmly told my friends sitting across from me, "Don't freak out." As he came in the door, he started waving a SA black pistol around (I'm sure I'd be able to ID the gun now, but this was before I knew much of anything about particular makes or models). He immediately went to the register and demanded the money, which one of the employees quickly complied. I suppose him realizing I was the most likely person to intervene (being male and with open space between me and him), he decides he needs to pacify me above any others, so I get the gun pointed at me from about 8' away. I have never felt as helpless in my life as I did at that moment. I had no choice but to simply sit there and hope to God that I didn't go the way of my cousin. My absolute number one emotional reaction was anger, with a tad of fear just enough to keep myself from doing something stupid. He got the money (something like $140), and quickly ran out the back door into the dark alley behind the building. I immediately got up to make sure the back door was fully shut, instructed one of the workers to lock the front door, and called the police. The fine CSPD was there within a minute, and we ended up being there until close to 2:30 AM as they processed the scene and took our statements.

For those who have said that they would act in this situation, the question is when. It would seem that there are only a few choices.
1. As the BG walks into the Subway, assuming that you saw him in sufficient time to draw. My imagination has the backdrop for the BG being the window glass in front of the store and with unknown persons in the dark outside
2. While he is at the cash register, demanding the money. Based on how most Subways are laid out, this might mean shooting towards the kitchen where employees unaware of the situation might be working.
3. When he pointed the gun at Jack868. Legally, this would seem the safest but still might have the employees directly behind the BG. It also seems to be the greatest tactical disadvantage which might have put Jackal and his companions in the direct line of return fire, even if a perfectly executed a double tap COM was delivered.
4. As the BG turns and tries to exit. This would be the safest tactically but looks like it could pose a real legal problem. One could easily argue that the BG was no longer a threat.

[Embalmo]

target a bit. I prefer to think of me carrying a gun to be nearly identical to me "carrying a CPR card":

That is: I hope to never have to use it. But if I do have to use it, nothing else will do. Whats more - I learned CPR so I could save the life of someone else, both family and non-family members alike.

Taking on responsibility for the public at large may be plausible if we were to travel in CHL teams, or at least keep ourselves on call for back-up; but for just one of us, the one man police force just won't work.

Getting a CPR card for the sake of possibly saving an entire room of people who need CPR won't work, especially if you and your family need CPR as well. I consider the gun more a rescue asthma inhaler (me and my wife share the same one); I use it to save me and my family and then I call the professionals.

Embalmo

[gabe]

I'm no longer paid to risk my life for strangers and my primary duty is now to my family. I have a duty to protect them and a duty to come home to them with the same number of holes as when I left.

[Bob in Big D]

Let them have the money including yours if the BG asked for it. Like I said earlier, if they want to take hostages or start shooting, that is a different story. Enjoy your sandwich the BG's normally just want to get what they can quickly and get out of there.