CHL holder killed by police in Las Vegas at a Costco

[austin-tatious]

. . . who among us can guarantee that we will never be outed no matter how hard we work to prevent it? Who can guarantee that, if you are asked to leave and you immediately comply, that the police won't still be called and the situation won't still escalte as it did in Erik's case? Who can guarantee that, even if you do everything the police ask of you, an office with a different point of view won't interpret your actions as a threat and fire?

There are no guarantees. Who can guarantee that you won't be run over by a car, struck by lightening[sic], or bit by a rattlesnake? I think the odds of those are much greater than the things you're concerned about. Carrying a weapon reduces some dangers while increasing others. I firmly believe that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, by far. In the end of course, you have to make your own decisions, but I really think you're letting a single, freak incident stir you up more than the situation warrants. I would think that shopping at Costco while carrying concealed is still much safer than driving.
Sorry, I don't mean to make light of your concerns. I'm just trying to put them in perspective.

I can take reasonable precautions (and do) for all three of those...run over by a car, struck by lightning, and the rattlesnake...to lower the odds that it will ever happen to me. Not guarantee, but lower the odds. That's why we're discussing/disputing/sharing (not to mention grieving about it) here...so we can all lower the odds of a fatal encounter with LE in a case like this one. That's why we spend so much time (some of us anyway ) here and elsewhere. So I will be better prepared for such a scenario and continue to carry responsibly everywhere I am allowed.

Edit: Correct spelling of "fire from the sky". Thank you Jim.

[seamusTX]

Lightning—does not contain the letter e.



- Jim

[baldeagle]

I can take reasonable precautions (and do) for all three of those...run over by a car, struck by lightening, and the rattlesnake...to lower the odds that it will ever happen to me. Not guarantee, but lower the odds. That's why we're discussing/disputing/sharing (not to mention grieving about it) here...so we can all lower the odds of a fatal encounter with LE in a case like this one. That's why we spend so much time (some of us anyway ) here and elsewhere. So I will be better prepared for such a scenario and continue to carry responsibly everywhere I am allowed.

Thank you for ably articulating my concerns. When my girls were growing up, I never allowed them to go to the State Fair at night with their friends. In my mind that was a reasonable precaution given what was occurring at the time. They still gripe about it, but both are alive and neither has ever been assaulted. I think I made the right decision based on my knowledge of the location and the crimes that were being committed at the fair at that time.

I have a lifelong habit of looking for escape routes in traffic, and I've been known to swerve to the shoulder when traffic stopped ahead of me, not because I was driving too fast but because I wanted to give the vehicle behind me more room to stop. A couple of years ago I avoided what could have been an extremely serious collision by doing that. (The truck hit three other vehicles, but not mine.) I don't go outside when lightning is active or when the conditions are right. And I would never hike in an area where rattlesnakes might be without an experienced guide and a walking stick to keep the rattlesnake at bay (and now a gun as well.)

But I've never carried a loaded weapon in my life - not even when I was in the Navy - and sorting through how to deal with situations that involve a loaded weapon isn't something I've given any thought to - until now. I'll confess, although I talked a good game (carrying a gun is serious business, guns are always loaded, never point a weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot, yada, yada, yada), I didn't realize how serious (although I thought I did) until Erik was killed. Now my awareness is extremely elevated, and I am actively seeking any information to build a workable avoidance strategy that will reduce my risk of being shot by responding officers. Part of my concern is because of the well documented "blackout" period during high stress situations. If I haven't planned and trained for the worst, I will not be ready, and the risk of serious injury or death is heightened.

One thing this has done is cause me to decide that my decision to carry is for my personal safety and the safety of my family, not a civic duty or an opportunity for me to help others. I am much less likely to get involved in someone else's problem to the point of using my gun unless I am absolutely certain that I have no other choice. I'll be a good witness, but if you're looking for a bodyguard, you should have carried yourself. It may be crass to say it, but if I have to decide between your life and mine, that decision was made a long, long time ago. I will not risk my life for you unless the odds are highly in my favor.

This is a dramatically different approach to carrying than the one I adopted early on when I first made the decision to get my CHL. And it's a direct result of Erik's death.

[Beiruty]

New Video on Deadly Force by LV Metro PD:

http://www.8newsnow.com/Global/category ... start=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not Enough training? Rookies do make fatal mistakes too.

[dicion]

New Video on Deadly Force by LV Metro PD:

http://www.8newsnow.com/Global/category ... start=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not Enough training? Rookies do make fatal mistakes too.

The reporter should have shot the guy reaching for his cell phone, IMO. But a good example of what police have to face

[Excaliber]

I can take reasonable precautions (and do) for all three of those...run over by a car, struck by lightening, and the rattlesnake...to lower the odds that it will ever happen to me. Not guarantee, but lower the odds. That's why we're discussing/disputing/sharing (not to mention grieving about it) here...so we can all lower the odds of a fatal encounter with LE in a case like this one. That's why we spend so much time (some of us anyway ) here and elsewhere. So I will be better prepared for such a scenario and continue to carry responsibly everywhere I am allowed.

Thank you for ably articulating my concerns. When my girls were growing up, I never allowed them to go to the State Fair at night with their friends. In my mind that was a reasonable precaution given what was occurring at the time. They still gripe about it, but both are alive and neither has ever been assaulted. I think I made the right decision based on my knowledge of the location and the crimes that were being committed at the fair at that time.

I have a lifelong habit of looking for escape routes in traffic, and I've been known to swerve to the shoulder when traffic stopped ahead of me, not because I was driving too fast but because I wanted to give the vehicle behind me more room to stop. A couple of years ago I avoided what could have been an extremely serious collision by doing that. (The truck hit three other vehicles, but not mine.) I don't go outside when lightning is active or when the conditions are right. And I would never hike in an area where rattlesnakes might be without an experienced guide and a walking stick to keep the rattlesnake at bay (and now a gun as well.)

But I've never carried a loaded weapon in my life - not even when I was in the Navy - and sorting through how to deal with situations that involve a loaded weapon isn't something I've given any thought to - until now. I'll confess, although I talked a good game (carrying a gun is serious business, guns are always loaded, never point a weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot, yada, yada, yada), I didn't realize how serious (although I thought I did) until Erik was killed. Now my awareness is extremely elevated, and I am actively seeking any information to build a workable avoidance strategy that will reduce my risk of being shot by responding officers. Part of my concern is because of the well documented "blackout" period during high stress situations. If I haven't planned and trained for the worst, I will not be ready, and the risk of serious injury or death is heightened.

One thing this has done is cause me to decide that my decision to carry is for my personal safety and the safety of my family, not a civic duty or an opportunity for me to help others. I am much less likely to get involved in someone else's problem to the point of using my gun unless I am absolutely certain that I have no other choice. I'll be a good witness, but if you're looking for a bodyguard, you should have carried yourself. It may be crass to say it, but if I have to decide between your life and mine, that decision was made a long, long time ago. I will not risk my life for you unless the odds are highly in my favor.

This is a dramatically different approach to carrying than the one I adopted early on when I first made the decision to get my CHL. And it's a direct result of Erik's death.

In view of the fact that there's a lot of this type of thinking going on among our members and I'm seeing a lot less of the armchair commando viewpoints that were common a few years ago, I believe Erik's death, though tragic, has not been in vain. It's brought the seriousness of the responsibility of carrying a deadly weapon and the finality of what can happen into the consciousness of the CHL community better than anything that's come before.

[Excaliber]

"Contagious shooting" (some officers firing only because others did) is a mark of an agency with a drastically deficient training program. Even when shooting is justified, not every officer at a scene may be in a position to see the justification. A well trained and conscientious officer must and will hold his fire until he is both individually justified in using DPF and he believes it is necessary to do so.

I am glad that you posted this. I was going to bring this up in an earlier post, but was not aware of the term "contagious shooting." I can easily visualize this happening in a tense situation when several officers are pointing their guns at a suspect." After the first shot is fired, I can imagine the volley of shots that would follow without further consideration.

Wouldn't Amadou Diallo be a good example of that?

Yes, that tragic NYPD case is a good example of misidentification of a common object (a wallet) as a deadly weapon, contagious shooting, and poor shot discipline as well. Many agencies have learned much from it and adapted their training accordingly, but there are still some who don't seem to have gotten the memo.

[TXlaw1]

One thing this has done is cause me to decide that my decision to carry is for my personal safety and the safety of my family, not a civic duty or an opportunity for me to help others. I am much less likely to get involved in someone else's problem to the point of using my gun unless I am absolutely certain that I have no other choice. I'll be a good witness, but if you're looking for a bodyguard, you should have carried yourself. It may be crass to say it, but if I have to decide between your life and mine, that decision was made a long, long time ago. I will not risk my life for you unless the odds are highly in my favor.

This is a dramatically different approach to carrying than the one I adopted early on when I first made the decision to get my CHL. And it's a direct result of Erik's death.

This transition in attitude is what I am dealing with as a recently retired LEO who carried off-duty to protect myself and the public. Having the badge next to the gun in case someone noticed I was carrying made a difference and represented the authority I had under law.

Now as a CHL, I'm dropping the protection of the public part - except in rare situations where peoples lives are in immediate danger, like the Luby's massacre - and simply focusing on myself and my loved ones who are with me. It is taking a little getting used to but is easier each day.

[Excaliber]

One thing this has done is cause me to decide that my decision to carry is for my personal safety and the safety of my family, not a civic duty or an opportunity for me to help others. I am much less likely to get involved in someone else's problem to the point of using my gun unless I am absolutely certain that I have no other choice. I'll be a good witness, but if you're looking for a bodyguard, you should have carried yourself. It may be crass to say it, but if I have to decide between your life and mine, that decision was made a long, long time ago. I will not risk my life for you unless the odds are highly in my favor.

This is a dramatically different approach to carrying than the one I adopted early on when I first made the decision to get my CHL. And it's a direct result of Erik's death.

This transition in attitude is what I am dealing with as a recently retired LEO who carried off-duty to protect myself and the public. Having the badge next to the gun in case someone noticed I was carrying made a difference and represented the authority I had under law.

Now as a CHL, I'm dropping the protection of the public part - except in rare situations where peoples lives are in immediate danger, like the Luby's massacre - and simply focusing on myself and my loved ones who are with me. It is taking a little getting used to but is easier each day.

That transition takes time and a lot of getting used to. It also seems to be something each retiring LEO encounters on his own and is a bit taken aback by as the full impact of the realizations and implications of the change in status slowly dawn on him. I haven't seen any agency training programs that address it, but I think there's a need for that.

It took me over 2 years to complete the process to the point where I was no longer reacting to situations like an LEO and having to mentally jerk back on my reins to keep myself from jumping into situations to do things that were no longer necessary nor appropriate.

A few hours of training for officers approaching retirement would go a long way toward making this transition smoother than it is.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Apparently the Las Vegas newspaper that ran articles on this shooting is suing a number of websites for alleged copyright violations. I suspect the claims are bogus due to "fair use" doctrine, but in an abundance of caution, do not copy articles are excerpts from any Las Vegas newspaper or their website. It's okay to paraphrase the article and put a link to it. However, why advertise for them; cite a different source if possible.

Chas.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36382&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[VMI77]

One thing this has done is cause me to decide that my decision to carry is for my personal safety and the safety of my family, not a civic duty or an opportunity for me to help others. I am much less likely to get involved in someone else's problem to the point of using my gun unless I am absolutely certain that I have no other choice. I'll be a good witness, but if you're looking for a bodyguard, you should have carried yourself. It may be crass to say it, but if I have to decide between your life and mine, that decision was made a long, long time ago. I will not risk my life for you unless the odds are highly in my favor.

This is a dramatically different approach to carrying than the one I adopted early on when I first made the decision to get my CHL. And it's a direct result of Erik's death.

I think that's a very good decision on your part. That is the course I intended from the start and it is also the attitude and approach emphasized in my CHL class.

[03Lightningrocks]

One thing this has done is cause me to decide that my decision to carry is for my personal safety and the safety of my family, not a civic duty or an opportunity for me to help others. I am much less likely to get involved in someone else's problem to the point of using my gun unless I am absolutely certain that I have no other choice. I'll be a good witness, but if you're looking for a bodyguard, you should have carried yourself. It may be crass to say it, but if I have to decide between your life and mine, that decision was made a long, long time ago. I will not risk my life for you unless the odds are highly in my favor.

This is a dramatically different approach to carrying than the one I adopted early on when I first made the decision to get my CHL. And it's a direct result of Erik's death.

I think that's a very good decision on your part. That is the course I intended from the start and it is also the attitude and approach emphasized in my CHL class.

[baldeagle]

A coroner's inquest has been scheduled for Sep 3 at 9 AM for the fatal shooting of Erik Scott. The press is still reporting that the police fired when Erik pointed his gun at them. The coroner's inquest is open to the public, so if anyone wants to travel to Las Vegas and hear the testimony first hand, mark your calendar. There have been twenty police shootings, nine of them fatal including Erik's. (The time frame isn't specified in the story.) All previous cases have found the shootings to be either justified or excusable except one, a drive-by shooting by a cop that killed a gang member. The ACLU is questioning the process, claiming that the process is “unfair”, because "Clark County policy doesn’t allow cross examination and comments from the deceased’s family."

The hard drive that contains surveillance video has been sent to a police agency in California for forensic analysis. Erik's father's attorney is also questioning the inquest process, citing the same problems that the ACLU has pointed out.

EDIT: Erik's shooting was the seventeenth police shooting this year. The department averages 20 police shootings per year or one every 2.6 weeks. I'm having trouble finding Dallas officer involved shootings statistics, but I doubt seriously they are anywhere near that high.

EDIT2: This blog post is quite an indictment of the Vegas police. It's a bit over the top in my opinion, but it speaks of an attitude that is apparently pervasive in Vegas - you can't trust the police. The post is long, and it's in two parts.

[Pinkycatcher]

EDIT: Erik's shooting was the seventeenth police shooting this year. The department averages 20 police shootings per year or one every 2.6 weeks. I having trouble finding Dallas officer involved shootings statistics, but I doubt seriously they are anywhere near that high.

That's a pretty big jump, 17 already this year and we're only halfway through the year? In 2009 Houston had 29 or so shootings by police (http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/lo ... der-debate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and Houston is about 4 times larger than Vegas and only has 1.5 times as many shootings. I think this would exponentially increase with size (bigger cities have exponentially more shootings as smaller). With just a cursory glance it looks like either Vegas needs to train better (probably) or Houston is extremely well trained and skilled (probably not)

[baldeagle]

On March 24, 2010, Costco announced (pdf) that they had selected Virtual Surveillance as their video surveillance vendor. The press release reads, in part,

“Security personnel are faced with an overwhelming volume of video and data, making it difficult to pinpoint events of genuine importance” said John Mitchell, VP of sales at Virtual Surveillance. “Our digital surveillance systems offer behavior recognition and forensic analysis to help save time and zero in on relevant and critical data.

Virtual Surveillance handles several Vegas casinos, and their surveillance systems are state of the art. The contract called for beginning the installations in Texas. Hopefully the system was in place at the Summerlin store and the video will be made available at the inquest. That's the only way we will know what really happened, both inside and outside the store.