CHL holder killed by police in Las Vegas at a Costco

[drjoker]

never shop there again?

Yeah, please do NOT shop at Costco. Not only do the employees want to kill you, but they always enjoy giving customers a hard time. Every time I have a bad hair day, the Costco Gestapo will send a rude little Indian guy to accuse me of not having a membership card and accuse me of using someone else's card. What's ridiculous is that they SAW MY PHOTO COSTCO ID when I entered the store, but will accuse you of this afterwards at the cashier. Another time, I had a spoiled orange sold to me. I took it back and wanted an exchange of one orange. They had an open box on the showroom floor. However, the rude little redhead chick told me that they don't allow exchanges and I must go home and fetch the whole box of oranges to get a full refund instead. So, I wasted 30 min of time and a couple bucks of gas to drive back with a nearly empty box of oranges and they gave me a full refund. How idiotic is that! They made a customer mad and wasted money because they had to do a full refund on a nearly finished box of oranges when all they had to do was allow me to swap one lousy rotten orange for a good one out of an already open box that they had. Costco is run by rude and idiotic employees and now they have self checkout lanes. This means that they want you to be a cashier/bag boy. Gee, if I enjoy being a bag boy, that would be my profession, now, wouldn't it? Self checkout only decreases customer service and increase unemployment. I have never seen supermarkets lower prices after installing self-checkout lanes.

I invite you to CANCEL YOUR COSTCO MEMBERSHIP because they kill their customers, are rude, idiotic, and increase unemployment during a time when the economy desperately needs to increase employment. Shopping at Costco is unpatriotic and unAmerican!

Also, I came across this post in another forum:

Google “Costco George Soros”

Soros Fund Management LLC is the largest stockholder.

Soros was on the board for a while. Now it’s some lackey of his.

(Soros is vehemently anti-2nd amendment)

Costco is also one of the largest private supporters of Planned Parenthood and is recommended by Planned Parenthood as the locale of choice to buy abortion drugs, as they have a cut-rate-deal with Planned Parenthood.

I invite you to drop your evil Costco membership.

[Oldgringo]

I believe that this is going to be the crucial evidence to determine what actually happened inside the Costco store.

Everyone who has seen Twelve Angry Men knows how ambiguous evidence can be. Or perhaps recall the Rodney King video and its aftermath.

- Jim

Good point and a great movie.

[baldeagle]

This comment to a news article on the shooting took my breath away.

I couldn't agree with you more....My wife and I were 7 or 8 feet away from the shooting as were the police. We were to the suspects immediate right. We heard and saw the 3 police officers shouting to the man in question to 'get on your knees' several times. At that point the man appeared somewhat stunned by the commotion and shouting of the police. His Right arm went up in a defenseless position and it appeared his left arm appeared to be going up but there was NO gun in his hand. He was taserd and shot at the same time. At no time did the man in question ever raise his voice, shout an obscenity or become confrontational with the police. We saw the disabled man stooping to his right facing us with what appeared to be a bullet wound in his upper chest with blood coming from the wound and immediately his eyes became glossy as he began to convulse. At this point he was no threat to anyone, both hands were in full view of us and there was no gun. As he was down, the police continued to shout 'put the gun down' several times...but there was no gun in his hand as we had full vantage point view. The injured man was having agonal respirations, he was down when the second volly of bullets rang out. There was no doubt in question that following the second barrage of bullets the man was dead. His girlfriend was to the back side of us and began to scream.....why did you kill him, he is a military man with a license to carry a concealed weapon. You didn't need to kill him....you didn't need to kill him.
An officer then came up to the injured man who in my opinion was a 'dead' man', was cuffed with his hands behind his back and no attempt by the officer to determine if the man was alive or dead. No apparent life saving aid was given to the 'downed' man. The man was totally lifeless when the Paramedics arrived on scene. I was absolutely surprised to see that no attempt at aggressive ACLS was engaged. They simply just picked up the body like a 'sack of potatoes' and hurled him onto the gurney and into the ambulance This was a crime scene.... the crime scene was violated. One of the paramedics who attended to an injured elderly lady said the man was dead. There was a dead man in front of Costco. What nobody is talking about is that there were many many spectators, many like ourselves within just a few feet of the victim when the shots rang out. It seems to me that the greater danger was posed not by the victim but by the police who fired many shots in the vicinity of the innocent public. I agree with you, I hope the media and your friends family can get their hands of Costco's Camera's which will indeed tell the rest of the story. Also it must be confirmed whether the second gun supposedly found by the victims side was indeed also registered to him as a licensed conceal and carry.
This whole incident was a monumental tragedy; a tragedy for the family and friend and also a tragedy for the involved officers who were pushed into a needless confrontation that reached hysterical proportions due to the overreaction of certain employees and bystanders. This was a needless death.

In summary it is our opinion that the victim did not pose an immediate threat to the public.....and in the final analysis was a case of excessive force

Based on the comments of a number of eyewitnesses who posted comments to this news article, the police officers involved should be tried for murder.

[Beiruty]

Just shocking! I am still having the chills from reading this testimony.

What, I could not believe my eyes. He raised both arms in surrender position and he got shot and killed, tased and then shot another time

[jinzai]

"agonal respirations"
"ACLS"

Sounds like EMS off duty. Would make for a heck of a good witness for the plaintiff (or prosecution?) in court.

Re: my comment in an earlier post about video muddying the waters...

If you've followed the Nathaniel Sanders case here in Austin at all, it's a perfect example of how this can occur.

Totally different circumstances, mostly favoring the officers. Dashcam video showed much of the incident. However, having seen it played over and over again on local news outlets, it could be interpreted in any number of ways, depending on the narrative you get when viewing the video. I many ways, it caused a lot more speculation than revelation.

Few would disagree, this Vegas shooting is a sad, sad case. I just renewed my membership to Costco... told the wife it was a waste of $50 as we won't be shopping there in the future.

Yet, I still say from some witness accounts it seems like Scott did handle the initial situation with the Costco store employees unwisely. However, it's all "he said, she said" at this point. The complete story of the actual events won't come out in full for years.

Now, as for the issue of being asked to leave a store after an employee sees you are carrying - why argue the point at all? As a long-time business owner, if I tell someone to get out of my place of business, that's my call. The reason doesn't matter. And, having had to call the police to escort unruly patrons out of my place of business in the past, I can tell you that it really hacks a business owner or manager off when patrons think that they have the right to stay when asked to leave the premises. As a private business owner, I can revoke my invitation to your privilege to patronage at any time; it's my prerogative.

Your right to carry does not include a right to remain in a privately owned place of business after the owner or their agent (employee, manager) requests that you leave the premises. And, if you're asked to leave and you refuse, you should expect for law enforcement to be called by the owner or employees.

Apparently, Scott was asked to leave at some point, and he didn't. That was the initial decision that ultimately ended in tragedy, that could have easily been avoided by merely complying with the wishes of the Costco staff.

While we may not like it that people don't want us carrying on their property, if they ask you to leave in my experience there's not much to be done about it.

Charles, what's your take on this issue as an attorney and CHL instructor? Any thoughts or insights as to the implied contract (if any) between business owner and patron, and how it affects CHL holders who are asked to leave because they're carrying?

[WildBill]

This comment to a news article on the shooting took my breath away.

Just shocking! I am still having the chills from reading this testimony.

What, I could not believe my eyes. He raised both arms in surrender position and he got shot and killed, tased and then shot another time

This could be an accurate "eye witness" account, but it is not testimony. So far, it is just an anonymous post on the internet.

[philip964]

"agonal respirations"
"ACLS"

Sounds like EMS off duty. Would make for a heck of a good witness for the plaintiff (or prosecution?) in court.

Re: my comment in an earlier post about video muddying the waters...

If you've followed the Nathaniel Sanders case here in Austin at all, it's a perfect example of how this can occur.

Totally different circumstances, mostly favoring the officers. Dashcam video showed much of the incident. However, having seen it played over and over again on local news outlets, it could be interpreted in any number of ways, depending on the narrative you get when viewing the video. I many ways, it caused a lot more speculation than revelation.

Few would disagree, this Vegas shooting is a sad, sad case. I just renewed my membership to Costco... told the wife it was a waste of $50 as we won't be shopping there in the future.

Yet, I still say from some witness accounts it seems like Scott did handle the initial situation with the Costco store employees unwisely. However, it's all "he said, she said" at this point. The complete story of the actual events won't come out in full for years.

Now, as for the issue of being asked to leave a store after an employee sees you are carrying - why argue the point at all? As a long-time business owner, if I tell someone to get out of my place of business, that's my call. The reason doesn't matter. And, having had to call the police to escort unruly patrons out of my place of business in the past, I can tell you that it really hacks a business owner or manager off when patrons think that they have the right to stay when asked to leave the premises. As a private business owner, I can revoke my invitation to your privilege to patronage at any time; it's my prerogative.

Your right to carry does not include a right to remain in a privately owned place of business after the owner or their agent (employee, manager) requests that you leave the premises. And, if you're asked to leave and you refuse, you should expect for law enforcement to be called by the owner or employees.

Apparently, Scott was asked to leave at some point, and he didn't. That was the initial decision that ultimately ended in tragedy, that could have easily been avoided by merely complying with the wishes of the Costco staff.

While we may not like it that people don't want us carrying on their property, if they ask you to leave in my experience there's not much to be done about it.

Charles, what's your take on this issue as an attorney and CHL instructor? Any thoughts or insights as to the implied contract (if any) between business owner and patron, and how it affects CHL holders who are asked to leave because they're carrying?

I totally agree with everything you have said. Most of us did not realize that just this small error in judgment after a life time of good decisions would lead to our death, but now we know. Too bad one of us had to find this out for us to learn.

If you are asked to leave a place of business for a constitutionally protected right, you have a cause of action against that business. In this case with Costco being that they have deep pockets that would have been the preferable course of action than refusing to leave. Rosa Parks was not killed for her right to sit any where on a bus, but Eric was killed for his right to bear arms.

[WildBill]

Rosa Parks was not killed for her right to sit any where on a bus, but Eric was killed for his right to bear arms.

This is not true. Rosa Parks road the bus knowing that she would be challenged. Erik Scott was killed for "allegedly" not following the lawful orders of Las Vegas LEOs. Erik Scott did not set out to be a martyr for the Second Amendment. He was not trying to make any kind of political statement. He simply went out with his girlfriend to buy some things for their new apartment.

[seamusTX]

Costco did not order the police to kill Mr. Scott (as if they could do such a thing). Get a grip.

You do not have "constitutionally protected rights" on the private property of another. If you want to make a speech in my living room, I might be in a good enough mood to roll my eyes and listen to you, or I might boot you out the door.

- Jim

[Pinkycatcher]

What is also a bummer is that both Cotsco and the Police have incentives to present their side of the story that presents them in the best of light, but Erik is not alive to present his side of the story. Maybe he was asked to leave immediately, maybe he was asked to finish his shopping and leave quickly, or maybe he was told to head to the check out line "now" (whenever he was told) and to leave, the latter two notices both not being the same as being told to leave the property.

[baldeagle]

What is also a bummer is that both Cotsco and the Police have incentives to present their side of the story that presents them in the best of light, but Erik is not alive to present his side of the story. Maybe he was asked to leave immediately, maybe he was asked to finish his shopping and leave quickly, or maybe he was told to head to the check out line "now" (whenever he was told) and to leave, the latter two notices both not being the same as being told to leave the property.

His girlfriend can (and I"m sure will) testify. She was with him the whole time. There were others who witnessed his behavior inside the store as well. Yet others can testify to his walk to the outside and to what happened during the altercation with the police. Erik will be well represented, I'm sure. His father can afford to hire attorneys to represent him at any trial. If Las Vegas tries to sweep this under a rug, Erik's dad will make sure they fail.

[TXlaw1]

You do not have "constitutionally protected rights" on the private property of another. If you want to make a speech in my living room, I might be in a good enough mood to roll my eyes and listen to you, or I might boot you out the door. - Jim

In fact one does, Jim or seamusTX, have "constitutionally protected rights" on the private property of another - including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This is especially true if one is an invitee and in that status is on the property of another. A shopper in a store is a commercial invitee and the store owner cannot deprive him of these constitutional rights without due process of law. And the invitee must be given reasonable opportunity to leave the premises if his invitation is withdrawn.

As an attorney and retired LEO, it seems to me these are the issues, inter alia, at question in this terrible situation -
1. Just how and to what extent was he told to leave?
2. What opportunity was he given to leave?
3. What did the police do in the process of his leaving?
4. Were their actions lawful?
5. Was this veteran deprived of his life without due process of law?
6. Were the actions of the police ultra vires?

Time and the judicial system MAY provide the answers to these questions IF all parties and witnesses tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to an honest and impartial trier of fact. Will there be one? Maybe. I hope we live long enough to find out and for justice to be served.

[03Lightningrocks]

This is a seriously screwed up situation for sure. I have a memebership at the Plano Costco and have returned all kinds of stuff. Opened and not opened. They have never even hesitated to refund my money. Weird that this Costco would start an altercation over returned goods. I brought back a half case of green beans because the date had expired. I bought the case the week before but the date expired like ten days later. I told the guy I would not have bought the beans if I had noticed the date was about to expire. he said no problem and refunded my entire amount. Maybe it is more of a crime to return goods in Nevada than Texas.

Seriously though, if it turns out these cops executed this guy, they should all be tried as criminals like any other murderer would. Being a cop should not give you special privileges to kill people.

[Oldgringo]

This is a seriously screwed up situation for sure. I have a memebership at the Plano Costco and have returned all kinds of stuff. Opened and not opened. They have never even hesitated to refund my money. Weird that this Costco would start an altercation over returned goods. I brought back a half case of green beans because the date had expired. I bought the case the week before but the date expired like ten days later. I told the guy I would not have bought the beans if I had noticed the date was about to expire. he said no problem and refunded my entire amount. Maybe it is more of a crime to return goods in Nevada than Texas.

Seriously though, if it turns out these cops executed this guy, they should all be tried as criminals like any other murderer would. Being a cop should not give you special privileges to kill people.

Costco is not Las Vegas and Las Vegas is not Costco. Las Vegas is Las Vegas and "that's all I have to say about that". Don't go to Las Vegas if you feel a boycott is in order.

The truth will out and justice will be served - one way or another. Sadly, Eric will still be dead.

[seamusTX]

In fact one does, Jim or seamusTX, have "constitutionally protected rights" on the private property of another - including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You can call me Jim or Seamus. I also answer to Casey. I'm not fussy.

Please educate me about how the 5th or 14th amendment due process clause applies to non-governmental agencies.

- Jim