Post-incident survival - in public

[baldeagle]

There's been a lot of discussion in the IFF thread as well as the Costco thread about surviving an encounter with the police. The purpose of this thread is to discuss possible protocols for surviving the aftermath of a deadly force encounter. For purposes of this discussion, we're going to assume that you have drawn your gun and fired it and a single BG is disabled but not dead. There are no other BGs. You have the BG at gunpoint, and you have just called 911.

What information is vital to give to 911? Your description? The BG's description and condition? The fact that you have the BG at gunpoint? Discuss.

[yerasimos]

There's been a lot of discussion in the IFF thread as well as the Costco thread about surviving an encounter with the police. The purpose of this thread is to discuss possible protocols for surviving the aftermath of a deadly force encounter. For purposes of this discussion, we're going to assume that you have drawn your gun and fired it and a single BG is disabled but not dead. There are no other BGs. You have the BG at gunpoint, and you have just called 911.

What information is vital to give to 911? Your description? The BG's description and condition? The fact that you have the BG at gunpoint? Discuss.

*There has been a shooting at [location of the incident]
*Request for an ambulance and uniformed police officers in marked vehicles sent to the location
*Both of your descriptions, including that you (the good guy) is armed and holding your attacker at gunpoint
*Emphasis that you will cooperate with the officers' instructions when they arrive

I reckon that will cover enough necessary information without an overload of detail that could be garbled by the dispatcher when relaying it to first responders, or anything that would cause avoidable problems later.

[Beiruty]

Best strategy is
1) Clear communication with responding officers.
2) Just hope that said officers are well trained to handle a good guy with a gun.

[baldeagle]

Best strategy is
1) Clear communication with responding officers.
2) Just hope that said officers are well trained to handle a good guy with a gun.

Which begs the question - should CHL holders be working with their local PDs to train for such scenarios? Should CHL holders (if they want to) be involved in FOF training with local PD? Would local PD allow that? Should CHL holders be querying their local PDs on their training policies vis a vis GG vs BG scenarios involving CHL holders? Would local PDs be accepting of citizen review of the training?

[Beiruty]

Best strategy is
1) Clear communication with responding officers.
2) Just hope that said officers are well trained to handle a good guy with a gun.

A)Which begs the question - should CHL holders be working with their local PDs to train for such scenarios?
B)Should CHL holders (if they want to) be involved in FOF training with local PD?
C)Would local PD allow that?
D)Should CHL holders be querying their local PDs on their training policies vis a vis GG vs BG scenarios involving CHL holders?
E)Would local PDs be accepting of citizen review of the training?

Police Officers hate killing the good guy, no? Local PD hates to be sued for multi-million dollars for negligent homicide.
So,
A) Yes, why not? Local PDs have Police Academy and Citizens on Patrol Programs. So, "meeting" CHLer training is also a great help.
B) Maybe yes, maybe no. The best is to pro-active about such requests.
C) Again why not? Asking is not a crime.
D) Maybe not, but it could be possible if you are CHLer and a "meeting" a CHLer is available.

[budroux2w]

Best strategy is
1) Clear communication with responding officers.
2) Just hope that said officers are well trained to handle a good guy with a gun.

A)Which begs the question - should CHL holders be working with their local PDs to train for such scenarios?
B)Should CHL holders (if they want to) be involved in FOF training with local PD?
C)Would local PD allow that?
D)Should CHL holders be querying their local PDs on their training policies vis a vis GG vs BG scenarios involving CHL holders?
E)Would local PDs be accepting of citizen review of the training?

Police Officers hate killing the good guy, no? Local PD hates to be sued for multi-million dollars for negligent homicide.
So,
A) Yes, why not? Local PDs have Police Academy and Citizens on Patrol Programs. So, "meeting" CHLer training is also a great help.
B) Maybe yes, maybe no. The best is to pro-active about such requests.
C) Again why not? Asking is not a crime.
D) Maybe not, but it could be possible if you are CHLer and a "meeting" a CHLer is available.

That's almost not a bad idea. Emailing your respective city official/police chief and ask if there is specialized training regarding "good guy with a gun", and perhaps get information directly from the source on what they would like to see in this situation.

[baldeagle]

That's almost not a bad idea. Emailing your respective city official/police chief and ask if there is specialized training regarding "good guy with a gun", and perhaps get information directly from the source on what they would like to see in this situation.

I submitted a suggestion to the Richardson PD regarding CHL <-> RPD interaction. Richardson has an Explorer program for youngsters, a Reserve Officer program and a Volunteers program, so they might be amenable to the idea of a CHL program that enhances interaction with the police and citizens and improves outcomes for all of us.

I will let the Forum know what comes of my suggestion.

[fickman]

I'm in intrigued and cautious at the same time.

Non-CHLers have always construed us as wanting to be vigilantes or cops without badges. . . I'm afraid of perception issues. If you can do the leg work to convince them that you're not anticipating using a firearm, know the role of the CHL, and just want to prepare for a worst-case scenario (just like any of those pseudo-self defense classes for females), then there is something worthwhile here.

It'll be hard to approach them without looking like this is for CHLers to "play" policeman. You might keep that in mind as you proceed.

[baldeagle]

I'm in intrigued and cautious at the same time.

Non-CHLers have always construed us as wanting to be vigilantes or cops without badges. . . I'm afraid of perception issues. If you can do the leg work to convince them that you're not anticipating using a firearm, know the role of the CHL, and just want to prepare for a worst-case scenario (just like any of those pseudo-self defense classes for females), then there is something worthwhile here.

It'll be hard to approach them without looking like this is for CHLers to "play" policeman. You might keep that in mind as you proceed.

I've thought about that. I haven't totally formulated my approach yet, but here's my basic thought process. The Reserve Officer program is for people who want to play policeman in their spare time. The VIPS program is for people who want to help the police from time to time. The (newly suggested) CHL program is for people who have no desire (or time) to play policeman but want to develop a relationship with the PD, understand the rules of engagement used by the PD and perhaps foster learning on both sides that will result in protocols that can save lives.

[USA1]

What information is vital to give to 911? Your description? The BG's description and condition? The fact that you have the BG at gunpoint? Discuss.

There was a discussion on this a while back. http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 70#p365360" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's what I said then...

"Put gun away if possible then here are 5 things you should do including what to say....

1. Call 911
2. Officer this person attacked me, I will sign the complaint,
3. Officer here is the evidence (knife, gun, ball bat, whatever).
4. Officer these are the witnesses.
5. Officer you will have my full cooperation in 24 hrs after I see my attorney.

To be more specific..

1. Call 9-1-1. Ask for an ambulance and police. Asking for an ambulance first then police shows the human side of you.

2. Tell the operator "I shot a man that was trying to hurt me". The key words are shot (not killed, off'ed, smoked, etc), man (not a teenager, child, etc).

3. Give your location and describe yourself. Most likely your description will be relayed to the first responding police officer. It would be to your advantage if the officer has an idea of who is the "good guy".

4. Do not answer the operator's questions for details. You are being recorded so you have to be brief. Say that you are really busy right now but you are willing to stay on the line until police arrive.

5. Speak clearly. This projects the image of being in control and not panic.

6. Do not have your pistol in your hand when the officer arrives. Holster it when you see the car approach. Keep your hands visible from this point forward.

7. Give the officer a brief non-emotional description of the events. Give enough to make the initial police report. He/she needs basic information to decide if you are free to leave, getting a free ride to the police station for more questions, or getting the handcuffs.

8. Avoid giving out too much information. Your emotions will come out and may work against you. Say that you are trying your hardest not to throw up right now and would rather answer questions later. Police officers who have been involved in a shooting will sympathize with this. If you did #7 well, this should not be a problem.

9. Others. Don't argue with witnesses. Don't act aggressively even if you're angry. Move slowly."

[The Annoyed Man]

I'd give pretty nearly the same answer that I did in your other thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36226&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rdcrags]

In another thread it was pointed out, and I think rightly so, if the 911 operator tells you to put down your weapon, place the phone down without hanging up, and claim later that you didn't hear such instructions.

[baldeagle]

In another thread it was pointed out, and I think rightly so, if the 911 operator tells you to put down your weapon, place the phone down without hanging up, and claim later that you didn't hear such instructions.

I'm not sure I understand the thinking behind that. If the 911 operator informs the police that you were instructed to put down your weapon and the police arrive and see you holding a weapon, might they not be confused? I think a better way to handle it would be to tell the 911 operator that you will not put down your weapon until the police arrive, because you are holding the BG at gunpoint. Even if the operator insisted that I put it down, I would refuse. I would tell her, please inform the police that when they arrive, I will be the one holding the BG at gun point.

[The Annoyed Man]

If I have someone at gun point, I am not putting down the gun until the cops arrive. I will make sure that the 911 operator has a good description of me. When they get there and order me to put the gun down, I will do so then. But not before.

[budroux2w]

I'm in intrigued and cautious at the same time.

Non-CHLers have always construed us as wanting to be vigilantes or cops without badges. . . I'm afraid of perception issues.  If you can do the leg work to convince them that you're not anticipating using a firearm, know the role of the CHL, and just want to prepare for a worst-case scenario (just like any of those pseudo-self defense classes for females), then there is something worthwhile here.

It'll be hard to approach them without looking like this is for CHLers to "play" policeman.  You might keep that in mind as you proceed.

I've thought about that.  I haven't totally formulated my approach yet, but here's my basic thought process.  The Reserve Officer program is for people who want to play policeman in their spare time.  The VIPS program is for people who want to help the police from time to time.  The (newly suggested) CHL program is for people who have no desire (or time) to play policeman but want to develop a relationship with the PD, understand the rules of engagement used by the PD and perhaps foster learning on both sides that will result in protocols that can save lives.

Good points by both. Perhaps there's a way to try and find a program that fits these needs and not come across as playing cop. Perhaps a one or two day "talk" where both the agency and the CHLers can come up with a generally accepted protocol. As mentioned by TAM. if I'm holding an attacker at gun point I probably won't set my weapon down because "the police are on their way" but don't want to be shot either. I'm willing to bet money that the protocol will exactly what has been beaten down on this forum BUT we'll have at least some peace of mind and maybe even some played out scenarios that would be good for us and great for the officers as our numbers are increasing and the chance, however small, is still there.