Amish School Shooting

[Commander]

Home for lunch, I was watching Fox News coverage of the terrible shooting in Amish country. They had a phone interview with some "Criminal Profiler" named Pat Brown. Obviously an "anti" she advocated the passage of laws that would charge the owner of a gun used in the commission of a crime with the same charge as the perpetrator. In other words if your gun was stolen and used to commit a murder, you would be charged with murder.

I'm speechless.

[HighVelocity]

That's like saying if your vehicle is stolen and used in a crime then you are liable for the crime as well.
That's pie in the sky anti-speak, the problem is, sheep speak anti. We must squash every lame idea like this immediately when they come up.

[KBCraig]

Terrible event.

The Amish are pacifists. I understand pacifism on a personal level, and I understand opposing government initiating force. But since pacifism is intended for the benefit of the attacker (to persuade him and others that initiating violence is wrong), how could it possibly work when the attacker is crazy and just looking for easy victims?

For the sake of such an attacker's soul, first you have to stop the attack. Refusing to defend oneself does not deter someone intent on killing you, especially when his intentions have no sane basis.

Kevin

[cyphur]

Thats terrible. I've had the pleasure of sharing a home cooked meal with those people, and they are truely some of the nicest individuals you will ever meet.


On the other hand, even my wife, who is by religious nature a true pacifist(she is a Jevovah's Witness), agrees that defending your own life is justifiable, especially if there is a gun pointed at you.

[flintknapper]

Terrible event.

The Amish are pacifists. I understand pacifism on a personal level, and I understand opposing government initiating force. But since pacifism is intended for the benefit of the attacker (to persuade him and others that initiating violence is wrong), how could it possibly work when the attacker is crazy and just looking for easy victims?

For the sake of such an attacker's soul, first you have to stop the attack. Refusing to defend oneself does not deter someone intent on killing you, especially when his intentions have no sane basis.

Kevin

Yup!

A list of some fatal shootings at U.S. schools in recent years:


• Oct. 2, 2006: A gunman took about a dozen girls hostage, killing at least three of them, at a one-room Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania's Lancaster County, police said. The shooter was among the dead, and a number of people were injured.

• Sept. 29, 2006: 15-year-old Eric Hainstock brought two guns to a school in rural Cazenovia, Wis., and fatally shot the principal, a day after the principal gave him a disciplinary warning for having tobacco on school grounds, police said.

• Sept. 27, 2006: Duane Morrison, 53, took six girls hostage at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Colo. Morrison, sexually assaulting them and using them as human shields for hours before fatally shooting one girl and killing himself.

• Aug. 24, 2006: Christopher Williams, 27, went to an elementary school in Essex, Vermont, looking for his ex-girlfriend, a teacher. He couldn't find her and fatally shot one teacher and wounded another, police said. Williams also killed his ex-girlfriend's mother, according to authorities. He shot himself twice in the head after the rampage and was arrested.

• March 21, 2005: Sixteen-year-old Jeff Weise shot and killed five schoolmates, a teacher and an unarmed guard at a high school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation in Minnesota before taking his own life. Weise had earlier killed his grandfather and his grandfather's companion.

• Nov. 22, 2004: Sixteen-year-old Desmond Keels is accused of fatally shooting one student and wounding three others outside Strawberry Mansion High in Philadelphia. The attack apparently was over a $50 debt in a rap contest. Keels is set to stand trial on murder charges later this month.

• April 24, 2003: 14-year-old James Sheets shot and killed the principal in the crowded cafeteria of a junior high school in south-central Pennsylvania, before killing himself.

• May 26, 2000: 13-year-old Nathaniel Brazill killed his English teacher on the last day of classes in Lake Worth, Fla., after the teacher refused to let him talk with two girls in his classroom. He was convicted of second-degree murder and is serving a 28-year sentence.

• April 20, 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 23 before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.

• May 21, 1998: Two teenagers were killed and more than 20 people hurt when a teenage boy opened fire at a high school in Springfield, Ore., after killing his parents. Kip Kinkel, 17, was sentenced to nearly 112 years in prison.

• May 19, 1998: Three days before his graduation, an honor student opened fire at a high school in Fayetteville, Tenn., killing a classmate who was dating his ex-girlfriend. Jacob Davis, 18, was sentenced to life in prison.

• March 24, 1998: Two boys, ages 11 and 13, fired on their Jonesboro, Ark., middle school from nearby woods, killing four girls and a teacher and wounding 10 others. Both boys were later convicted of murder and can be held until age 21.

• Dec. 1, 1997: Three students were killed and five wounded at a high school in West Paducah, Ky. Michael Carneal, then 14, later pleaded guilty but mentally ill to murder and is serving life in prison.

• Oct. 1, 1997: Sixteen-year-old Luke Woodham of Pearl, Miss., fatally shot two students and wounded seven others after stabbing his mother to death. He was sentenced the following year to three life sentences.


The common denominator: No one there equipped to stop them!

The damage is done before authorities can arrive.

[GlockenHammer]

I am all for peace. But I believe in peace through strength and the ability to conquer aggressors.

[longtooth]

Thanks for the list Flint. It is printed out & saved for future use.

[Venus Pax]

I agree that this is horrible, especially that someone would do this to a group of people that stay to themselves and harm no one.
It shows you that there are truly evil people in the world. In fact, Dad & I were talking about evil people on our way to the CHL day Saturday. The only way to stop these people is to fight them. (And Dad and I are usually pacifists. We don't believe in fighting unless there is no way to avoid it.)
Charging a gun owner for the offenses of another human being is irrational. Basically, you're saying that the felon has no responsiblity for his actions. This is why our society is like it is.

[shootthesheet]

We need to change the law in TX to take away the restriction on CHL inside school buildings and at events. The state could possibly stop or lessen any future attack by simply allowing CHL holders to carry. One teacher or principal or janitor or lunch lady or parent could be enough to stop or seriously discourage any shooter from continuing. And, it is 100% free to the state and local government as well as the school. It is time the state stops looking on us as the threat. More citizens carrying guns means it is less likely than any one can commit this kind of act.

My prayers go out to all those who were affected by this evil act. They didn't deserve to be touched by this. But, it goes to show that just because your a good person and refuse to harm other doesn't mean you won't suffer the insanity with the rest of us.

[Commander]

Flintnapper, I seem to remember in one of those school shootings a teacher or vice principal ran to his truck and retrieved his pistol and used it to hold the gunman until police arrived.

[cyphur]

Flintnapper, I seem to remember in one of those school shootings a teacher or vice principal ran to his truck and retrieved his pistol and used it to hold the gunman until police arrived.

I seem to think there was more than one incident where something like happened.



*Obviously CHL'ers are too irresponsible to carry in schools - with all the public shootings of children by them, torture of animals and drug abuse and all. So of course we can't let them carry in our schools. *

Instead lets have SWAT be training in our schools, positioned in a way to react quickly, and spend more money on quasi rentacops - real cops who couldn't grab their gun over their gun if they had a Glock pointed at their skull.


Background - I went to high school with SWAT training there on the weekends, and a fat#&* cop who was good for little but show. So I'm sick and tired of their half measures and fake gestures to pacify the sheep.

[piro]

As an FYI the weapons he took in one was a 12 gauge shotgun, Springfield 9mm and 600 rounds of ammo, 2 knives, and a stun gun + a unknown (to me anyway) 3rd firearm.

[KBCraig]

As an FYI the weapons he took in one was a 12 gauge shotgun, Springfield 9mm and 600 rounds of ammo, 2 knives, and a stun gun + a unknown (to me anyway) 3rd firearm.

+duct tape and flexcuffs/wire ties.

Not to mention lumber, nails, and a hammer.

News reports say he had no quarrel with the Amish, and whatever his 20 year old "issue" was, it had nothing to do with them specifically. It seems he wanted to retaliate against schoolgirls, so he chose a school that was nearby, easily accessible, and guaranteed to have no form of security or way to quickly summon help.

Sad.

Kevin

[phddan]

I heard he left notes to his family, saying he was angry.

What in the world could he possibly be so angry about that he does this?

Dan

[flintknapper]

Flintnapper, I seem to remember in one of those school shootings a teacher or vice principal ran to his truck and retrieved his pistol and used it to hold the gunman until police arrived.

That is correct. It was the last one listed, it occurred in Pearl, Miss.

The vice principal had to run about a 1/4 mile to his vehicle to retrieve his pistol. The very instant he confronted the gunman, the shooting stopped and he put down his weapon.