Question about a 51% sign...

[neawalker]

I was in The Woodlands recently and attended the local art festival on the waterway with my wife. It was outdoors in a public park setting. You had to pay to get in the gates. A local restuarant had liquor carts where you could buy beer in different areas and they had 51% signs posted on the sides of them. I'm thinking in that case the sign doesn't mean anything, because the cart is not a place of business. It was wierd however as I have never seen it posted like that before...

[Kevinf2349]

I think it means you aren't allowed to sit IN the cart with your weapon.

It beats me as to why they would do that unless the grounds were actually private.

[srothstein]

He had the signs because the law required them. They just were not posted properly. For a business to sell alcoholic beverages at anyplace other than their normal location, they need to get a temporary license. All the festivals have to do this, even Fiesta in San Antonio. Anyone, even a not normally licensed person or group can get a temporary license like this.

So, when he went to set the carts up, he applied for a temporary license and told them he would get more than 51% of his income from the sale of alcoholic beverages. They give him the temp and tell him to post the 51% signs. Now we are back at the question posed before about bowling alleys and whatnot. His license covers the whole park so that people can walk around while drinking. He is legally a 51% business, his license covers the park, so the park should be posted. But the whole park is not getting his sales money and he doesn't get it from everyone else. The whole event may not be properly a 51% location. And the law does not allow other people's profits to be considered in the gross income of his business.

This is something we need to clear up (and the best way to do so is get rid of the 51% restriction).

[Ol Zeke]

He had the signs because the law required them. They just were not posted properly. For a business to sell alcoholic beverages at anyplace other than their normal location, they need to get a temporary license. All the festivals have to do this, even Fiesta in San Antonio. Anyone, even a not normally licensed person or group can get a temporary license like this.

So, when he went to set the carts up, he applied for a temporary license and told them he would get more than 51% of his income from the sale of alcoholic beverages. They give him the temp and tell him to post the 51% signs. Now we are back at the question posed before about bowling alleys and whatnot. His license covers the whole park so that people can walk around while drinking. He is legally a 51% business, his license covers the park, so the park should be posted. But the whole park is not getting his sales money and he doesn't get it from everyone else. The whole event may not be properly a 51% location. And the law does not allow other people's profits to be considered in the gross income of his business.

This is something we need to clear up (and the best way to do so is get rid of the 51% restriction).

[neawalker]

So what you're saying is it's a huge grey area?

[Bennies]

I came across the same problem at the water way on the 4th of July fire works display two years ago. They had a "no guns allowed sign" up at the south entrance of the event by that stair well. I shrugged my shoulders and pressed on past the sign. Near the ticket booth there was another booth that sold alchohal with a valid 51% sign. At that point I turned around, left the event and watched the fireworks by laundrys seafood on a grassy hill. It was less crowded anyways. I had the same question though. What constitutes as the 51% premis in that situation. I was in a public area I usual carry into all the time on a normal day. It was too grey for me so I just left. Interesting question you ask though, hopefully someone knows the answere.

[Ol Zeke]

I came across the same problem at the water way on the 4th of July fire works display two years ago. They had a "no guns allowed sign" up at the south entrance of the event by that stair well. I shrugged my shoulders and pressed on past the sign. Near the ticket booth there was another booth that sold alchohal with a valid 51% sign. At that point I turned around, left the event and watched the fireworks by laundrys seafood on a grassy hill. It was less crowded anyways. I had the same question though. What constitutes as the 51% premis in that situation. I was in a public area I usual carry into all the time on a normal day. It was too grey for me so I just left. Interesting question you ask though, hopefully someone knows the answere.

Since they are not in a building.... I just won't go up to them and buy a beer.

However, I'm not above finding a non-carrying adult who will buy one for me.

[Photoman]

This is something we need to clear up (and the best way to do so is get rid of the 51% restriction).

Yes indeed!

[Photoman]

What constitutes as the 51% premis in that situation.

It was explained to me by TABC that whatever is mapped out on the license is what counts.

[srothstein]

What constitutes as the 51% premis in that situation.

It was explained to me by TABC that whatever is mapped out on the license is what counts.

That is correct. Whatever is listed as the premises on the license is what is the premises for the law. A good basic rule for you to follow is that the licensed premise is anywhere they will let you take the drink. That is why they leave these large defined premises on licenses.

The other big gray area is what counts as a premise. In the Alcoholic Beverage Code, it is clearly shown to include the parking lots, and this has applied to the Penal Code for years for the basic unlawfully carrying upgrade. But for a CHL and the 51% rule, the Penal Code specifies that premises means buildings. I honestly cannot say which definition the courts would take, especially for a licensed premise that does not include a building, such as a party in a park.

[Bennies]

What constitutes as the 51% premis in that situation.

It was explained to me by TABC that whatever is mapped out on the license is what counts.

That is correct. Whatever is listed as the premises on the license is what is the premises for the law. A good basic rule for you to follow is that the licensed premise is anywhere they will let you take the drink. That is why they leave these large defined premises on licenses.

The other big gray area is what counts as a premise. In the Alcoholic Beverage Code, it is clearly shown to include the parking lots, and this has applied to the Penal Code for years for the basic unlawfully carrying upgrade. But for a CHL and the 51% rule, the Penal Code specifies that premises means buildings. I honestly cannot say which definition the courts would take, especially for a licensed premise that does not include a building, such as a party in a park.

See too many variables for me. So i just left when i encountered the sign on the 4th. I do not need those kind of legal problems if i ever was made.

[Photoman]

What constitutes as the 51% premis in that situation.

It was explained to me by TABC that whatever is mapped out on the license is what counts.

That is correct. Whatever is listed as the premises on the license is what is the premises for the law. A good basic rule for you to follow is that the licensed premise is anywhere they will let you take the drink. That is why they leave these large defined premises on licenses.

Be aware that an entire building can be mapped 51% but certain sections of the building can be off limits to consumption of alcohol due to property owner restrictions. That is, the entire building can be included in the license map but consumption of alcohol is permitted only in parts of the building. Is this legal for a building owner to restrict the license map? I don't know.

[srothstein]

Photoman,

The owner still has control over his property to do with as he wishes. Almost all businesses have places that are off limits to customers, such as the store room. A bowling alley will not allow any food or beverages in the lanes part of the alley usually, even though both the store room and the lanes are part of the licensed premises.

This is not to be confused with diagramming off part of the premises on the license application. A business may also tell TABC that part of the building is not available for the licensed premises by marking it off on the application. A lot of small bars do this if the owner lives in an apartment above the abr for example. The diagrammed off part is not open to allow people to take their drinks there, but it is also not part of the licensed premises.

So, if an owner has a true 51% license for part of his business, he can stop people from taking alcohol to another part of the business. It may be just a house rule where the 51% still applies to the other part of the business and it may be diagrammed off on the license where the 51% rule does not apply. There is no way to know without calling TABC and asking if there is any part of the building diagrammed off. I think this is part of the public record and they will tell you, but I am not positive on that.

[DallasCHL]

What constitutes as the 51% premis in that situation.

It was explained to me by TABC that whatever is mapped out on the license is what counts.

That is correct. Whatever is listed as the premises on the license is what is the premises for the law. A good basic rule for you to follow is that the licensed premise is anywhere they will let you take the drink. That is why they leave these large defined premises on licenses.

The other big gray area is what counts as a premise. In the Alcoholic Beverage Code, it is clearly shown to include the parking lots, and this has applied to the Penal Code for years for the basic unlawfully carrying upgrade. But for a CHL and the 51% rule, the Penal Code specifies that premises means buildings. I honestly cannot say which definition the courts would take, especially for a licensed premise that does not include a building, such as a party in a park.

The courts must take the definition in the section that contains the prohibition. Local definitions control over global and 64.035 has it's own definition of "premises." So the courts must take the definition in 46.035 that includes only buildings. 46.02 does not have its own definition, which is why courts can use the TABC's definition of "premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages." It's possible that some district court will apply the TABC map, but it would be clearly wrong to do so.

Of course, under the heading of "you can beat the rap but not the ride," the more important question is which definition the cop is going to use.

ETA: the language of 46.02(c) and 46.035(b)(1) is also subtly but significantly different. Compare "on any premises licensed or issued a permit . . ." to "on the premises of a business that has a permit . . ."


The usual disclaimer applies: If you need legal advice, hire a lawyer, because this isn't legal advice and your situation may vary.