Concerned over cuffed and stuffed

[Fangs]

handog's method of carry isn't any more reckless than mine. There have been a few seating arrangements that made me nervous too, where I wasn't too worried about it because I had my back to the wall. Now someone sitting behind a one way mirror may very well have been able to spot me printing badly in those situations. Sometimes I've chosen to stand, just to avoid the chance of being spotted.

Despite what he did wrong (getting spotted in a very less than ideal situation, not having the use of his hand to cover as he exited his vehicle), I still think that the responding officers went too far. Now they've taken a law abiding citizen who was either pro cop or neutral before this and left a very bad taste in his mouth.

I understand the bitterness, since I've almost been arrested falsely twice now. That sinking feeling that took up residence in my gut when I realized that they were really going to molest me in such a manner when I'm innocent is infuriating. The fact that I had an officer successfully take up my side against his fellow officers both times really did a lot for my faith in LEOs.

handog, the sting of the injustice does fade with time. I'm thankful that your CHL and gun have been returned to you without further hassle. All in all, for the way it started out, it sure ended about as well as you could have hoped for.

[glbedd53]

If handog's pics indicate wreckless carry, I'm in heep big trouble.

[handog]

My apologies if there is a "ticked off" tone to my posts.

The 911 call was a result of the gun either popping out like a poncho when I sat down or in the worst case scenario it was actually exposed for a split second while I stood up. I won't know until I get the police report. I have been carrying the same way for over two years without a problem so my gut feeling is the security guard made the call but I have no proof at this time.

I will have to respectfully disagree with the exposure while exiting the vehicle. If my shirt rides up a little while driving it is still concealed by definition because it is sandwiched between me and the back seat. Again, the gun would have been concealed as I exited if I was not forced to hold my hands in the air at gunpoint. It's like forcing someone to reach for the top shelf at wall mart at gunpoint then saying gotchya. It's not right

[A-R]

I will have to respectfully disagree with the exposure while exiting the vehicle. If my shirt rides up a little while driving it is still concealed by definition because it is sandwiched between me and the back seat. Again, the gun would have been concealed as I exited if I was not forced to hold my hands in the air at gunpoint. It's like forcing someone to reach for the top shelf at wall mart at gunpoint then saying gotchya. It's not right

The exposure while exiting vehicle point was that even when in a vehicle, the gun must be completely concealed. If it was completely concealed squished between your body and the seat back even with the cover garment riding up, then you're probably fine. But does it unconceal for a split second as you exit and lower your shirt? Or while you are driving and think it's concealed could a person see the back of the slide or something? My MO on this is if a police officer looking inside my vehicle during a traffic stop can see any hint of a weapon, then it's NOT concealed properly.

Realize I'm splitting hairs here and I have to readjust my shirt from time to time too. For me, it's just a matter of degree and frequency. I try to wear longer/bigger shirts when belt carrying or tuck the shirt to be sure the weapon is concealed. If my shirt is too small/short, I pocket carry.

Again, not saying any of this warranted your arrest.

[PeteCamp]

Gentlemen ... I sure wish there were some way to constructively channel all this energy and strong feeling into fixing this ridiculous law by legislative means. I may be missing it, but it seems folks in states that either have open carry and concealed carry, or precisely worded concealed carry laws don't seem to have these concerns. Can we not use these kinds of incidents to campaign for better and more effective legislation? Maybe the "Handog Ammendment"?

Seems to me it would sure be a better use of our time and energy than arguing amongst ourselves.

[handog]

"Not really; it must be "intentional" conduct and that's unique in Texas penal statutes. The intent was to prevent arrests and prosecution for unintentional failure to conceal."

Chas.

Apparently the law is all ready in place to prevent unnecessary arrests. Unfortunately the law and the fact that I had a CHL were ignored in this case.

[PeteCamp]

"Not really; it must be "intentional" conduct and that's unique in Texas penal statutes. The intent was to prevent arrests and prosecution for unintentional failure to conceal."

Chas.

Apparently the law is all ready in place to prevent unnecessary arrests. Unfortunately the law and the fact that I had a CHL were ignored in this case.

I agree. But ignorance is neither an excuse nor easily addressed. Am I wrong in stating that the conundrum in Texas over concealment is unique? Perhaps looking at concealed carry laws that don't create this trap might be beneficial? The very fact that we have these incidents proves one of two things about law enforcement. Either we have police departments that are out of control and officers who choose to make their own laws as they go, or we have a law whose intent is not clearly and easily understood by law enforcement. (I welcome any other explanations)

Since out of control departments and officers tend to end up out of work or in jail with some regularity, I choose to believe the latter. I am an optimist, despite what happens in Washington DC. I believe "we the people" - the good people of the state of Texas can fix the problem.

[Conagher]

Gentlemen ... I sure wish there were some way to constructively channel all this energy and strong feeling into fixing this ridiculous law by legislative means. I may be missing it, but it seems folks in states that either have open carry and concealed carry, or precisely worded concealed carry laws don't seem to have these concerns. Can we not use these kinds of incidents to campaign for better and more effective legislation? Maybe the "Handog Ammendment"?

Seems to me it would sure be a better use of our time and energy than arguing amongst ourselves.

EXCELLENT POST PeteCamp!

As a form of self amusement I did a forum search for “printing”, “wally walk” and “conceal”.

WOW!

There is no way I could get through every post (over 7K) but it was eye opening to recognize the concern, fear and apprehension that exists. The primary amusement part was reading through what I would refer to as the many alley-oop double-back flip antidotes (larger pants, bigger shirts, special vests, smaller gun, different holster, don’t sit in this type chair, stand here, walk this way, don’t reach up, etc., etc., etc.). Of coarse with the caveat that none of this is really required by law; but possibly necessary to “beat the ride”.

I could not help but think of Ben’s statement in regards to those willing to give up a little freedom for a little safety, deserve neither. (purist relax, not intended to be and exact quote or reference). Maybe ol’ Ben recognized what has become apparent in the above discussions; that it is hard to maintain footing once you start down that slipper slope. In this case an unnecessary freedom restriction to conceal has unintentionally necessitated additional freedom restrictions on what you wear, how you wear it, what/how you carry, were you go, etc.

Oh by the way, you do realize of coarse that approximately 75% of the U.S. population does not have this freedom restriction. Their forums must be really boring.

BRAVO the "Handog Ammendment"!

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!

[mctowalot]

FWIW, here's a little trick I'd like to share.
Take the fabric of your shirt that hangs about 2 inches below your beltline. Pull the clip(s) of your holster away from your body and stuff/slide the fabric between your belt and the holster clip(s). Push the clip(s) back, and the fabric will be "secured". Now you can reach that elusive item on the top shelf, (or for the sky) and (if your shirt is long enough) the holster clip(s) will hold the fabric from raising up. To draw you'll have to yank down on the bottom of your shirt and the fabric will pop right out. You will have to grab the bottom of your shirt to get to your gun anyway.
I'm going to start calling it the "handog" technique (with your permission handog).
Or you could just place a sock over the grip and folks will just think you've got a real bad static cling issue.

[Keith B]

Or you could just place a sock over the grip and folks will just think you've got a real bad static cling issue.

[handog]

Wait a minute…there were six hand guns and a shot gun pointed at me and a whole lot of adrenaline flowing. I almost died.

[gemini]

Exactly. RRPD over reaction, in this particular incident. I stand by my post on page 5 of this thread.
Handog, your pics look like you're using a Yaqui belt slide. Go with a 15-20 degree cant IWB.
With your build, the full size pistola should disappear.

Edit: forget the Yaqui belt slide. I went back and looked again. I thought the
belt clip was the end of the barrel. Sorry.

[mctowalot]

I really should have begun that post with, "I'm sorry this whole ordeal happened to you and here's a suggestion that I hope helps prevent something like this happening again". Please don't think I'm making light of the awfull situation - your story scares the heck out me really.
So with that out of the way, instead of a sock how about a hand puppet? Or an oven mit?
Wait, I've got it - a skintone matching glove. Then they'll just think you've got a hand growing out of your hip.
You could get a matching one for your other side! I'd love to hear that 911 call.

[OldSchool]

Well written lightningrocks

Nicely said, Lightning.

ETA: With all due respect to Handog, who was in a position none of us wants to experience (though, in fairness, I'm sure similar incidents have occurred to others): This has been a good discussion, even with the deep feelings it stirred up.

As far as changing to more convenient laws, I'm all for it. However, realize that we will never have perfect laws in a democracy, and so we must continue to learn how to do our part, while still fully exercising our freedoms. Maybe the old saying is appropriate here: "There are two things one should never watch being made: Sausage, and law."

I really believe the best thing about this is that it demonstrates that these forum members work very hard to stay within the law.

The vast majority of threads I've seen on this forum deal with questions about how to do just that, and I strongly want that to continue. As I've said before, all points of view are important (long as they stay away from the comments giving some DC legislators something to talk about these days, of course, IMHO).

[puma guy]

OK folks, keep it on the OP's original subject and nothing else.