Concerned over cuffed and stuffed

[driver8]

After reading cuffed and stuffed and the responses I would like to hear any ideas about ways of protecting ourselves. I realize the chances of any one of us going through that are pretty slim especially if we do what we're supposed to. Mainly I'm thinking about the point someone made about having a lawyer handy if that's practical and affordable. I'm 56 yrs old and not really familiar with much to do with lawyers, I've been lucky and or blessed so far to never need one. I took my CHL class from Charles and I would kinda like to know what he thinks about it.

[gigag04]

I wouldn't worry too much about it IMO. Only one side of the story has been told in that thread. I'm sure most others here will disagree though.

[RHenriksen]

Open carry advocates will often carry a digital voice recorder to capture any & all interactions w. law enforcement. If such a tactic would make you feel more comfortable, it seems like inexpensive solace.

[handog]

I wouldn't worry too much about it IMO. Only one side of the story has been told in that thread. I'm sure most others here will disagree though.

If the law was broken (the arresting officers side of the story) then why were the charges thrown out by the county attorney Don't worry, that's what I said. Now I worry.

[boomerang]

I have been carrying for years with no problems. In many of the stories I read, something doesn't add up. Maybe the poster is withholding some details for personal reasons. That's their right but it does raise questions.

Are there bad cops? Yes. But I don't think me carrying legally materially increases my risk from those rotten apples. YMMV

[MojoTexas]

I can't really comment on handog's case, because I wasn't there, and all I know is what I've read on this forum. It's not that I don't believe him, but obviously someone was able to determine he was armed, and they reacted. We haven't read the police report, nor have we heard the story from the arresting officer.

I don't know about y'all, but my CHL instructor (Dave Hammers at the Bullet Trap) really drilled it into our heads that concealed means CONCEALED. Yes, the law specifies that intentional printing is a crime, and accidental printing isn't, but the bottom line is that if nobody knows you're packing, you're better off. Dave used the example of you reaching for something on a high shelf at Wal-Mart, and some liberal anti-gun person spots that you're armed, and the next thing you know they're calling 911 reporting that you brandished your firearm at them. Even though you didn't, when the police arrive, they're going to determine that you ARE armed, and wonder how the person knew that you were armed unless you DID brandish your weapon. No it's not fair, but your best defense from these situations is to be discreet and make sure that you're concealed.

Also, that's part of the real reason for the Wally Walk tradition: to go out in public for the first time with someone (typically a spouse or significant other) and have them help you check out your rig, to make sure you're not flashing your piece when you reach for something high or sit down or bend over. Getting comfortable while carrying is only secondary in my opinion.

I recently signed up for the CHLPP insurance plan (http://www.chlpp.com/), and I plan to email and ask them if they cover incidents like handog's, or if they only cover cases where you had to use lethal force. Hopefully they'll cover any sort of CHL incident, but once I get clarification I will let y'all know.

Also, I think they way you conduct yourself if you ARE arrested can go a long way towards helping or hurting your case. Perhaps some of our LE members (gigag04?) can comment...but if you are polite and cooperate and act confident that you are not a criminal, then that helps you. Don't argue with the police...even if they are in the wrong, arguing or getting angry just makes things worse. If you are in the right, it'll get straightened out eventually. Just ask if you're being arrested...if they say you are, politely inform them that you'd like an attorney present before making a statement. You might have to spend the night in jail, but if your attorney is present when they question you they might just dismiss the charges and let you go on the spot.

All that being said, I'm not a lawyer...that's just my take on the issue.

MojoTexas

[gigag04]

CAs and DAs drop charges all the time - even in cases which are solid and well supported. Maybe they knew somebody, maybe there was one weak link in the case...could be a number of reasons. From what I know - it seems like they refuse cases that are not a slam dunk. Stats matter to everyone...if you rarely loose...you look good.

You can watch someone do something clearly illegal as a LEO, arrest them, book them on the charge, and have the case refused because your camera wasn't point the right way and didn't catch it on video.


You can have evidence thrown out for a case if you can't prove the PC for the traffic stop on video. Doesn't always happen but it's a huge risk.

The less witnesses, and the less video of an incident...the higher likelihood of it getting dropped or plead IMO.

The reason people get off on cases is that Probable Cause (required for arrest) is a lower standard than Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt (required for a conviction). The tricky part with slapping a CHL holder with a violation is you have to prove INTENTIONAL failure to conceal. Pretty hard.

[handog]

I have been carrying for years with no problems. In many of the stories I read, something doesn't add up. Maybe the poster is withholding some details for personal reasons. That's their right but it does raise questions.

Are there bad cops? Yes. But I don't think me carrying legally materially increases my risk from those rotten apples. YMMV

[gigag04]

Here we go....


IBTL

[A-R]

handog & gigag04:

I respect both of your opinions greatly. I have read many comments from each of you and you both seem to be good, intelligent people based on what I've read. It's obvious that this case of the "failure to conceal" incident in Round Rock has the two of you on opposite ends of an argument. Gigag04, you weren't there and don't know the details beyond what handog has told us all here on the forum. Handog, you have made your case on this forum against RRPD and further discussion of it - especially bashing the police, however subtle it may seem to you - can be offensive to the "good cops" out there (and I have to assume that gigag04 is one of the good cops), and can also be offensive to those of us who respect the badge. I don't think you intend to bash all cops, and I do believe your axe to grind is specifically with the RRPD and the particular officers involved. But you have said that you intend to leave it alone because you don't have time/money or whatever to pursue the situation further. So perhaps it's time to let it lie here on the forum too? If there's new information, I'd be interested to hear it. But until then, I think we know everything we're going to know about this situation.

And for everyone else, let's not pile on either of these guys. Handog went through a very trying ordeal. And gigag04, I can only assume, goes through ordeals on a near daily basis as most law enforcement officers do.

Anyway, IANAM (I am not a moderator) and I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds. But I just thought I'd take a moment to ask you guys bury the hatchet on this issue. Further back-n-forth probably ain't gonna solve anything.

Again, I respect both your opinions and hope to read many more of your posts in the future.

[driver8]

I really wasn't trying to get things stirred up, I just want to stay out of trouble. I assure you I DON'T intentionally expose. I'm going to keep trying to get a IWB set up I can stand to wear, I know that will help. I also know there are good cops and bad cops but I've come to believe there are good PD's and bad PD's. Some of the Houston suburbs have had problems over the years. Probably starts at the top.

[chabouk]

Gigag04, you weren't there and don't know the details beyond what handog has told us all here on the forum. Handog, you have made your case on this forum against RRPD and further discussion of it - especially bashing the police, however subtle it may seem to you - can be offensive to the "good cops" out there (and I have to assume that gigag04 is one of the good cops), and can also be offensive to those of us who respect the badge. I don't think you intend to bash all cops, and I do believe your axe to grind is specifically with the RRPD and the particular officers involved.

Before I say this, please know that I am not bashing cops. I know and respect lots of cops, some of whom I would trust with my life, my wealth, and my family. I've also known some of the other kind, but I take care not to keep such acquaintances close.

That said, there are two distinct views of what makes a "good cop". One side, which is the majority, thinks a "good cop" is one who doesn't blatantly violate your rights, doesn't take bribes, and only pushes the bounds of the 4th Amendment within the limits allowed by courts and common practice.

The other side thinks a "good cop" is one who not only knows there are bad cops, he's furious about it. This "good cop", who isn't very popular with other cops, won't look the other way, won't lie, and won't automatically give other cops the benefit of the doubt.

I know that sounds awfully harsh, and might even prickle some feelings, but that's not my intent. I just want to show that there's a lot more to being a "good cop" than just not being a "bad cop".

[wgoforth]

And may I add that there is a difference between good/bad cop vs UNINFORMED cop. I am sure that the local police in my community are good cops, but doesn't mean they are fully aware of current CHL laws. I recently asked an ex-police chief of a nearby community how much firearm training that the police in his town have, he shrugged his shoulders and said NONE. That "the bigger cities have police academies, but all they have to do is qualify on the range."

[bayouhazard]

Conceal well and follow Farnam's 3 rules of stupid. Avoids most problem.

[MojoTexas]

Conceal well and follow Farnam's 3 rules of stupid. Avoids most problem.

What are the three rules? I tried Googling for them and couldn't find them.