I fully agree with what Chabouk has said here, with one minor proviso. There is no definition in the law of what constitutes protection of himself or others and, obviously, reasonable is a great big gray area. So, until a court case makes it to the appellate level to make a decision, there is a de facto authority to disarm you, even if it is not de jure. In other words, you do not get to argue, fight, or even question the officer at the scene. Doing so will only confirm his opinion that you are dangerous and will be made to show that if this ever gets to court. The place to debate these things is the courtroom, either your trial for whatever he charges you with or his trial for the civil suit against him for infringing your rights.chabouk wrote:The problem starts with being disarmed. There are two occasions when a peace officer has authority to disarm a licensee:
1. When he reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of himself, the licensee, or a third party. (Government Code 411.207(a))
2. When entering the nonpublic, secure portion of a law enforcement facility, if properly marked. (Government Code 411.207(b))
There is no blanket authority to disarm every licensee, whether to check serial numbers or for any other purpose.
And I really do not expect this to ever be settled in court since the good guys with CHLs won't fight or argue and the bad guys won't have CHL's. As much as I agree that this is a civil rights violation, it is a gray enough area that I doubt you could get a lawyer to take it to court. The chances of winning are just too slim (unless there is something else going on that makes it worse and this becomes just a sideline).
This is also an accurate statement, along with the proviso. The trick to this one is that the officer cannot legally tell you to give him your pistol JUST so he can run it. That would be an illegal search. But if he disarms you under the authority given him by the law above, the numbers are then in plain view and are fair game. And if it does come back stolen, that search is legal and can be used in court.That said, under the plain view doctrine, he can run any number he can plainly see, whether it's your license plate number, VIN, serial number on the lawnmower in the back of your truck, etc. He just doesn't have the authority to force you to reveal those things so that he can check. Taking your gun from the holster in order to run the numbers is no different than making your remove the stereo from your dash so he can run the numbers.
Of course, to prove the case in court, they will also have to prove you knew it was stolen, something I sincerely doubt would ever happen with a CHL. Again, I have a lot of faith that CHLs are the good guys. You might end up with a stolen gun from another purchase, but I cannot see a CHL deliberately buying one.
Some side notes on running gun numbers. The serial numbers kept by the factories are totally irrelevant. The number on the gun is all that counts. The same serial number can legally be used on multiple guns by the same factory, let alone other factories. As long as there is some easily discernible difference, such as the model or caliber. Soem companies include the model as part of the serial number, which causes problems if the person reporting it to the police gives just the serial number part and not the full number. When you run a serial number, there is a good chance you will get a hit on a different gun with the same serial number. You have to look at the manufacturer, model, caliber, and serial number before being sure it is a hit. This has caused some new dispatchers and officers problems when the "hit" comes back to them.
As for drawing the pistol when the officer tells you to, that is exactly what you should do. It should not scare the officer since you are just obeying his instructions. Ayoob's rule is good advice in general but does not apply to not obeying the officer. He probably never considered it because I can't see him disarming too many CHLs either.
I never really considered the problem of unloading the weapon before giving it to him. I don't know how an officer will react. Ther eis a strong safety argument that can be made either way. If the officer is just taking the weapon and putting out of your access, there is no need for either him or you to unload it. trying to manipulate it when ther eis no need seems like an extra danger to me. The flip side is that not all officers know every pistol (I doubt any officer does other than Tackleberry), and the officer trying to unload and make the pistol safe is much more dangerous if he doesn't know what he is doing. I seem to recall reading about a new tire for an ATV caused by this recently. I guess I would say that it can't hurt to ask the officer if you can unload it, but then do whatever he says.
As you might guess, I have never disarmed a CHL on any kind of stop and I generally advised my trainees not too also. I will have to consider how they should react to some of these points, especially unloading.
