Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
Being older and I hope wiser, sometimes goes hand in hand with being blunt.
As blunt as I can be here.... this is the worst idea I have read to date.
While intentions may be good, the end result is likely to be more bad press for legal gun owners.
If you want to feed your ego and get noticed for upcoming student elections, be known for meeting with the Police Department's community service division and starting a neighborhood watch program in the area you are talking about wanting to be safer.
If you don't think carrying a 12 gauge shotgun around, even slung over your back, in the capitol city of Texas is not going to be deemed "threatening" by some, you must be taking some really far out college courses that have warped your brain and your ability to use common sense.
Gun ownership carries responsibility. This is the most irresponsible idea I can imagine.
I sure hope the OP will post what day he plans to do this.... so I can stay as far away from Austin as possible so as not to be associated with this foolishness.
As blunt as I can be here.... this is the worst idea I have read to date.
While intentions may be good, the end result is likely to be more bad press for legal gun owners.
If you want to feed your ego and get noticed for upcoming student elections, be known for meeting with the Police Department's community service division and starting a neighborhood watch program in the area you are talking about wanting to be safer.
If you don't think carrying a 12 gauge shotgun around, even slung over your back, in the capitol city of Texas is not going to be deemed "threatening" by some, you must be taking some really far out college courses that have warped your brain and your ability to use common sense.
Gun ownership carries responsibility. This is the most irresponsible idea I can imagine.
I sure hope the OP will post what day he plans to do this.... so I can stay as far away from Austin as possible so as not to be associated with this foolishness.
Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
Wait a second. Aren't we talking about the premises of a school here? 30.05 may or may not be the correct statute you would be violating, but you or any CHLee surely can be prosecuted for carrying a weapon on school premises.ifanyonecan wrote:Also, I looked up the city ordinances. Here are the restrictions on firearms:
http://www.amlegal.com/austin_nxt/gatew ... Chapter9-6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The relevant portions:
Also, I know y'all aren't going to be happy (neither was I) about the 30.05 signs the city manager is supposed to put outside of city buildings. It's unenforceable, but it's on the books, so any CHL-holders in "violation" will probably beat the rap but not the ride (IANAL).§ 9-6-1 DEFINITIONS.
In this chapter:
(B) The notice posted under this section shall include a statement, in English and Spanish, to read substantially as follows:
A person may not enter these premises while carrying a concealed or unconcealed firearm. A person who enters these premises carrying a firearm may be subject to prosecution under Section 30.05 (Criminal Trespass) of the Texas Penal Code.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
Don't worry, Charles, I wouldn't think of actually asking anyone who "pledges" for their money should I be arrested. I am willing to take financial responsibility for any consequences. Although I would hope I could be reimbursed representation/court costs in an appeal/countersuit.
I don't plan to try it on campus. That just seems irresponsible.
And why not Round Rock? Do the state laws not apply there?
And thank you for that video. I like the way the black man in the tie defended his reasoning. He was peaceful, educated, and persuasive in his responses to the woman. And as for her, I'm actually impressed at how she handled herself. Rather than screaming or criticizing, she presented her opinions and questions in a respectful way. I'd hope to encounter similarly reasonable people.
I will definitely talk to a lawyer before doing this. Thank you for the information on the prepaid legal plans. There are some independent representatives here in my neighborhood, so I will go talk to one of them beforehand.
My parents' responses were interesting. This past weekend I visited home (I'm a college student, so I visit about twice per month.), and I expected my father to support it. My mother isn't educated on gun laws or personal freedoms in general, and she is unsupportive of causing confrontation when it can be avoided. I can see how she (and many others) think this is pointless, "asinine" (in my roommate's words), or just to get attention. But the truth is, if these freedoms aren't exercised, they can be taken much more quietly than if a portion of the population continue to exercise them.
My father was working in the ER all weekend, and I only saw him twice during meals and didn't tell him. But he texted me today, saying,
"The law that you will be prosecuted on is creating a public terror (I can't remember the exact wording, but when I used to question your granddad about that issue, he quoted the statute). Basically yes it is legal to carry a rifle down the street right outside of campus, but if your action of doing that causes ANYONE else to become frightened or worry, then you are in violation of this other law. Basically creating a public disturbance. And you will be arrested and successfully prosecuted for it. Call your granddad. And don't even think about doing that."
My granddad was a police officer mostly in and around Houston from the 50's-1995.
I told my father that according to the law, as long as I don't do anything "calculated to alarm", I am in the clear. But to be honest, I do think there could be a chance of getting arrested for being a public disturbance or for causing alarm. Does anyone have reference to statutes telling exactly what a public disturbance is or what would define me to be disturbing the peace?
And I agree with informing the city manager. As for writing him, would it be best to be "short and sweet" and just quote the law and tell him the city ordinances are in violation of state law?
C-dub, it is across the street from UT. If the 1000'-rule applies, than I will either stay in West Campus (which would be more precisely called "West OF Campus") or downtown.
DaveT, I understand where you're coming from, and there are parts of me that are feeling similarly. I know the law is on my side and I know it's a right, but I must question my own motives. In high school, I parked outside of the school parking lot (due to search and seizure rights violations I had seen with my friends, more on this story can be elaborated if you wish) and posted controversial opinions about school policies on my locker, after which my 1st-Amendment rights were violated by them censoring me while letting others put things on their lockers. I told the principal school censorship only applied if it was "disrupting the educational environment" (as ruled by the SCOTUS), and she told me the teachers couldn't teach because they were angry. After telling her the teachers were acting unprofessionally and shouldn't allow their emotions to conflict with their job, I was requested as a "personal favor" to back down in the matter, so I did out of respect for her position (She agreed with me but would likely get in trouble with the school board for allowing me to do what I was.)
That was a long story, but I say it all to give y'all some background on myself. I exercise my rights even when others or those in authority don't like it, and I enjoy doing so. In high school, most of the times I did so had reason, usually in protest of a policy or unconstitutional practice. However, I am hesitant to go through with this idea, because I don't necessarily think it has merit. Sure, we have had things stolen, there have been some assaults in West Campus, and the sometimes-aggressive beggars on the Drag are a problem, but OCing a shotgun isn't going to fix those. Also, these rights could be lost if not exercised, but they also could be taken away for being exercised without merit, and that isn't something I'd wish to risk.
If Texas allowed OC of handguns for my age, I would not hesitate to carry to do my errands that don't involve campus. But a shotgun isn't as practical for self-defense in public situations, and because of that, the law would have an easier time arguing that I was only doing it to make a statement (which is somewhat true), and that could be twisted into saying I calculated it to cause alarm.
Right now I'm on the fence about the whole idea. I'd like your thoughts, everyone.
EDIT: I am also not running for any Student Government positions. That was just something I'd read in the paper that got me thinking.
I don't plan to try it on campus. That just seems irresponsible.
And why not Round Rock? Do the state laws not apply there?
And thank you for that video. I like the way the black man in the tie defended his reasoning. He was peaceful, educated, and persuasive in his responses to the woman. And as for her, I'm actually impressed at how she handled herself. Rather than screaming or criticizing, she presented her opinions and questions in a respectful way. I'd hope to encounter similarly reasonable people.
I will definitely talk to a lawyer before doing this. Thank you for the information on the prepaid legal plans. There are some independent representatives here in my neighborhood, so I will go talk to one of them beforehand.
My parents' responses were interesting. This past weekend I visited home (I'm a college student, so I visit about twice per month.), and I expected my father to support it. My mother isn't educated on gun laws or personal freedoms in general, and she is unsupportive of causing confrontation when it can be avoided. I can see how she (and many others) think this is pointless, "asinine" (in my roommate's words), or just to get attention. But the truth is, if these freedoms aren't exercised, they can be taken much more quietly than if a portion of the population continue to exercise them.
My father was working in the ER all weekend, and I only saw him twice during meals and didn't tell him. But he texted me today, saying,
"The law that you will be prosecuted on is creating a public terror (I can't remember the exact wording, but when I used to question your granddad about that issue, he quoted the statute). Basically yes it is legal to carry a rifle down the street right outside of campus, but if your action of doing that causes ANYONE else to become frightened or worry, then you are in violation of this other law. Basically creating a public disturbance. And you will be arrested and successfully prosecuted for it. Call your granddad. And don't even think about doing that."
My granddad was a police officer mostly in and around Houston from the 50's-1995.
I told my father that according to the law, as long as I don't do anything "calculated to alarm", I am in the clear. But to be honest, I do think there could be a chance of getting arrested for being a public disturbance or for causing alarm. Does anyone have reference to statutes telling exactly what a public disturbance is or what would define me to be disturbing the peace?
And I agree with informing the city manager. As for writing him, would it be best to be "short and sweet" and just quote the law and tell him the city ordinances are in violation of state law?
C-dub, it is across the street from UT. If the 1000'-rule applies, than I will either stay in West Campus (which would be more precisely called "West OF Campus") or downtown.
DaveT, I understand where you're coming from, and there are parts of me that are feeling similarly. I know the law is on my side and I know it's a right, but I must question my own motives. In high school, I parked outside of the school parking lot (due to search and seizure rights violations I had seen with my friends, more on this story can be elaborated if you wish) and posted controversial opinions about school policies on my locker, after which my 1st-Amendment rights were violated by them censoring me while letting others put things on their lockers. I told the principal school censorship only applied if it was "disrupting the educational environment" (as ruled by the SCOTUS), and she told me the teachers couldn't teach because they were angry. After telling her the teachers were acting unprofessionally and shouldn't allow their emotions to conflict with their job, I was requested as a "personal favor" to back down in the matter, so I did out of respect for her position (She agreed with me but would likely get in trouble with the school board for allowing me to do what I was.)
That was a long story, but I say it all to give y'all some background on myself. I exercise my rights even when others or those in authority don't like it, and I enjoy doing so. In high school, most of the times I did so had reason, usually in protest of a policy or unconstitutional practice. However, I am hesitant to go through with this idea, because I don't necessarily think it has merit. Sure, we have had things stolen, there have been some assaults in West Campus, and the sometimes-aggressive beggars on the Drag are a problem, but OCing a shotgun isn't going to fix those. Also, these rights could be lost if not exercised, but they also could be taken away for being exercised without merit, and that isn't something I'd wish to risk.
If Texas allowed OC of handguns for my age, I would not hesitate to carry to do my errands that don't involve campus. But a shotgun isn't as practical for self-defense in public situations, and because of that, the law would have an easier time arguing that I was only doing it to make a statement (which is somewhat true), and that could be twisted into saying I calculated it to cause alarm.
Right now I'm on the fence about the whole idea. I'd like your thoughts, everyone.
EDIT: I am also not running for any Student Government positions. That was just something I'd read in the paper that got me thinking.
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
I think you should spend more time studying
If you are going to do it
1. Contact the Police and let them know whats going on.
2. I would suggest carrying pepper spray
3. Dont bring any ammo for the Shotgun, I know that sounds crazy, but I wouldnt
4. Make sure you know where campus is and isnt. It can get crazy 'round there I've walked onto Campus Property without knowing it.
5. I would pass out Pamplets or Flyers or something to let people know what you are about, and why you are doing this>
6. Travel with a couple of people, dress nice, shave, and dont have a 'tude.
7. Contact the College Republicans of UT.
8. Contact the Law School and ask around
9. Put up flyers before hand so people will know whats going on
10. Contact the Governor he might support you.
Good luck, stay out of trouble
If you are going to do it
1. Contact the Police and let them know whats going on.
2. I would suggest carrying pepper spray
3. Dont bring any ammo for the Shotgun, I know that sounds crazy, but I wouldnt
4. Make sure you know where campus is and isnt. It can get crazy 'round there I've walked onto Campus Property without knowing it.
5. I would pass out Pamplets or Flyers or something to let people know what you are about, and why you are doing this>
6. Travel with a couple of people, dress nice, shave, and dont have a 'tude.
7. Contact the College Republicans of UT.
8. Contact the Law School and ask around
9. Put up flyers before hand so people will know whats going on
10. Contact the Governor he might support you.
Good luck, stay out of trouble
In Capitalism, Man exploits Man. In Communism, it's just the reverse
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
marksiwel, I agree with your list. Also, it turns out I don't need prepaid legal. Being a UT student, I'm covered by their legal services. They will consult with me and, should I need it, represent me.
http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/lss/services.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Felonies aren't eligible for representation, only consultation; however, § 42.01 (a) (8) "A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly ... displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm" is a Class B Misdemeanor.
I am on the fence about the issue. I will talk to a lawyer, but even if I am legally okay, is this beneficial or detrimental to our cause? Perhaps I should just wait until I can get my CHL and exercise my rights less blatantly, and, perhaps, recklessly.
EDIT: marksiwel, why pepper spray?
http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/lss/services.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Felonies aren't eligible for representation, only consultation; however, § 42.01 (a) (8) "A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly ... displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm" is a Class B Misdemeanor.
I am on the fence about the issue. I will talk to a lawyer, but even if I am legally okay, is this beneficial or detrimental to our cause? Perhaps I should just wait until I can get my CHL and exercise my rights less blatantly, and, perhaps, recklessly.
EDIT: marksiwel, why pepper spray?
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
Because, someone might try and take your shotgun, better to pepper spray them than to shoot them.ifanyonecan wrote:marksiwel, I agree with your list. Also, it turns out I don't need prepaid legal. Being a UT student, I'm covered by their legal services. They will consult with me and, should I need it, represent me.
http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/lss/services.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Felonies aren't eligible for representation, only consultation; however, § 42.01 (a) (8) "A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly ... displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm" is a Class B Misdemeanor.
I am on the fence about the issue. I will talk to a lawyer, but even if I am legally okay, is this beneficial or detrimental to our cause? Perhaps I should just wait until I can get my CHL and exercise my rights less blatantly, and, perhaps, recklessly.
EDIT: marksiwel, why pepper spray?
It shows "Restraint"
In Capitalism, Man exploits Man. In Communism, it's just the reverse
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
I think its detrimental. The anti's will see you as a scary example. The Austin un-American Statesman and the rest of the media will paint it the way they want. I don't think it will make anybody switch sides. I'd hate to see you get a conviction that would delay you from getting your CHL.ifanyonecan wrote:[SNIP]
I am on the fence about the issue. I will talk to a lawyer, but even if I am legally okay, is this beneficial or detrimental to our cause? Perhaps I should just wait until I can get my CHL and exercise my rights less blatantly, and, perhaps, recklessly.?
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
I agree about the restraint. Good thinking.
I don't think it would delay me. Isn't it Class A Misdemeanors and above?davidtx wrote:I think its detrimental. The anti's will see you as a scary example. The Austin un-American Statesman and the rest of the media will paint it the way they want. I don't think it will make anybody switch sides. I'd hate to see you get a conviction that would delay you from getting your CHL.ifanyonecan wrote:[SNIP]
I am on the fence about the issue. I will talk to a lawyer, but even if I am legally okay, is this beneficial or detrimental to our cause? Perhaps I should just wait until I can get my CHL and exercise my rights less blatantly, and, perhaps, recklessly.?
Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
First, undertaking this particular form of activism is likely to get a lot of negative attention, including the possibility of arrest and charges being filed. I understand that you're looking to generate attention for a problem, so this might be an acceptable consequence for you. Sometimes you have to take a stand, so rock on if that's what you're willing to accept.
But, what you are proposing is not illegal. Unless you're carrying "in a manner calculated to cause alarm", i.e., you intend to alarm people, you're not in violation.
It doesn't matter what anyone says who used to be a cop, or who knows an attorney. It's still plainly legal.
But, what you are proposing is not illegal. Unless you're carrying "in a manner calculated to cause alarm", i.e., you intend to alarm people, you're not in violation.
It doesn't matter what anyone says who used to be a cop, or who knows an attorney. It's still plainly legal.
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
I love college students. They know it all.
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
cant blame him for having the Can do 'tude.s197winstang wrote: I love college students. They know it all.
If this was about the 1st Amendment you could have a aparade and burn flags, block traffic and break noise levels like nobodys business no one would say BOO.
But a couple of guys want to walk down the street with perfectly legal weapons in a legal manner and people are getting their skirts all twisted.
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
But, what you are proposing is not illegal. Unless you're carrying "in a manner calculated to cause alarm", i.e., you intend to alarm people, you're not in violation.
So somebody can call the cops and say they saw him, claim it causes them great fear, and the end result will be ?
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
Fine line between brave and stupid but, this one falls on the latter. The intent is pure but the actual plan will result in negative results for him, and for all us. Given recent local events (plane into Federal building + the unlawful arrest of a member in Round Rock) I would strongly advise against this form of protest or whatever you want to call it. If he wants to drive positive change in his neighborhood it will require political action-- i.e. meeting with APD, Campus Police and gaining support from his fellow neighbors. This takes time and patience but will result in change without an arrest record. The young man makes valid points and I for one believe that the good guys have the deck stacked against them when it comes to the legal system but I could not in good conscience lead the young man to believe what he intends to do is by any means right. While we will likely forget all about this he may have it with him his entire life. Avoid a jacket at all costs.... it will make his future aspirations possible. Get a jacket and doors start closing. In short, please, please don't do this.
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
Thanks to everyone for the information and advice.
I am fully aware that the laws are on my side; however, the police will likely not be. And unfortunately, job interviewers often ask "Have you ever been arrested? For what?" rather than "Have you ever been convicted of a crime?". I'm sure I wouldn't say, "I was carrying my shotgun down the street," rather something more along the lines of, "It was a false arrest while I was exercising my rights," but it still would knock me down the applicant list.
In addition to talking to the university law staff, I will likely speak with a lawyer who goes to my church in my hometown. His wife taught me economics and AP government last year. He is the DA and Municipal Court Judge, and he also has his CHL and carries everywhere (even the courtroom, he is a former police officer and a judge, and I believe it is allowed because of one of those). He has several ARs and I believe a couple AKs, and his sons keep Desert Eagles under their seats. Short story, he supports guns and stays extremely current with gun laws. He should have some experienced advice for me.
Also, without my father's blessing, I will certainly not be taking the family Winchester, so I'll be looking for a (somewhat) cheap shotgun. I was wanting one to keep in our apartment anyways, so it's not like I'm buying it for the express purpose of carrying it around. Actually, it would be a great time to carry it home from the gun store that's about a half-mile away. It would be a great time to see how APD handles it, since I'll actually have reason to be walking with it. I have a car, but they don't need to know that. I'll just show them the receipt and have the laws handy (preferably memorized, or perhaps that iPhone app) in case I do get questioned. Any suggestions for a black, low- to mid- range shotgun in 12ga with a high shell capacity? That's what I'm looking for. And I'll need a shoulder strap and would like a stock bandoleer.
I can go buy the shotgun this week and walk home with it. I'll feel very comfortable walking with it without dressing up or seeming like a "protest", since I'm in a situation that has a practical reason for having it (taking home my new baby ).
I am fully aware that the laws are on my side; however, the police will likely not be. And unfortunately, job interviewers often ask "Have you ever been arrested? For what?" rather than "Have you ever been convicted of a crime?". I'm sure I wouldn't say, "I was carrying my shotgun down the street," rather something more along the lines of, "It was a false arrest while I was exercising my rights," but it still would knock me down the applicant list.
In addition to talking to the university law staff, I will likely speak with a lawyer who goes to my church in my hometown. His wife taught me economics and AP government last year. He is the DA and Municipal Court Judge, and he also has his CHL and carries everywhere (even the courtroom, he is a former police officer and a judge, and I believe it is allowed because of one of those). He has several ARs and I believe a couple AKs, and his sons keep Desert Eagles under their seats. Short story, he supports guns and stays extremely current with gun laws. He should have some experienced advice for me.
Also, without my father's blessing, I will certainly not be taking the family Winchester, so I'll be looking for a (somewhat) cheap shotgun. I was wanting one to keep in our apartment anyways, so it's not like I'm buying it for the express purpose of carrying it around. Actually, it would be a great time to carry it home from the gun store that's about a half-mile away. It would be a great time to see how APD handles it, since I'll actually have reason to be walking with it. I have a car, but they don't need to know that. I'll just show them the receipt and have the laws handy (preferably memorized, or perhaps that iPhone app) in case I do get questioned. Any suggestions for a black, low- to mid- range shotgun in 12ga with a high shell capacity? That's what I'm looking for. And I'll need a shoulder strap and would like a stock bandoleer.
I can go buy the shotgun this week and walk home with it. I'll feel very comfortable walking with it without dressing up or seeming like a "protest", since I'm in a situation that has a practical reason for having it (taking home my new baby ).
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Re: Open Shotgun Carry in Austin
I think that would be a good start but take a can of pepper spray with you.
I think the cheapest ones now are the Pardner Pump and the Maverick 88. Both are good for the money. Both under $200
Let us know how it turns out for you.
I think the cheapest ones now are the Pardner Pump and the Maverick 88. Both are good for the money. Both under $200
Let us know how it turns out for you.
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