CHL and Alcohol

[srothstein]

Steve - Re: Your "I hate to question you when I agree with what you are saying, but can you explain where this line came from? It is not part of the penal code in Chapter 46 that I have."

Crossfire may want to address that individually, but " "Intoxicated" has the meaning assigned by Section 49.01, Penal Code. "
(IIRC - not at office to double check) is what (now retired) Sgt. Riddle quoted to us in an instructor newsletter years ago after the subject became a controversial issue when first included as a test question.

I am glad to see someone official agreed with us. I have always said the definition in 49.01 applied, which is what I meant by hating to question because I agreed. I really just wanted to see his logic and where the quotes definition came from because the post I referenced made it look like the definition was included in 46.035, which it is not. It is important to see that the GC subchapter on CHL's includes that , but it is only an indicator that it applies to 46.035 too. The problem is that the whole section (411.171) on definitions specifically says "in this chapter".

Normally, that means you could not carry the definition to even another chapter of the GC, let alone back to the Penal Code. But this is why I always try to add in the Code Construction Act (chapter 311 of the Government Code). This act says:

Sec. 311.011. COMMON AND TECHNICAL USAGE OF WORDS. (a) Words and phrases shall be read in context and construed according to the rules of grammar and common usage.
(b) Words and phrases that have acquired a technical or particular meaning, whether by legislative definition or otherwise, shall be construed accordingly.

I have always said that intoxication has taken on a technical meaning by virtue of the definition in 49.01. As proof, I almost always will argue that people no longer use intoxication to mean drunk. Drunk means much more than simply intoxicated and intoxicated means "legally" intoxicated for DWI, as defined in 49.01.

Now that someone pointed out the reference in the GC, it is even a much stronger argument that the definition in 49.01 was intended to apply to CHL's.

[sjfcontrol]

I'd like a law forbidding talking with one's wife while driving. I'm sure I could produce a study that proved it was more dangerous than being drunk or on a cell phone....

I've been annoyed recently with the laws forbidding the use of cellphones, even handsfree cellphones in school zones. There's nothing more distracting than a couple of fighting kids in the back seat. Lets forbid having children in cars in school zones, first! After all, it for the Children!

On a lighter note regarding schools, there's the "Parent drop-off area" signs. They're not dropping off parents, they're dropping off students. It should be a "Student drop-off area"

[57Coastie]

I have always said that intoxication has taken on a technical meaning by virtue of the definition in 49.01. As proof, I almost always will argue that people no longer use intoxication to mean drunk. Drunk means much more than simply intoxicated and intoxicated means "legally" intoxicated for DWI, as defined in 49.01.

As usual, after all the to and fro, Steve comes through. One question though, Steve. In the quoted paragraph might it be more appropriate to replace the word "legally" with "presumptively?"

I will be the first to admit that I have perhaps wandered off into one of your "technical meanings," but, as you know better than I, in this area of the law, as in most, technical meanings mean a lot.

PS Just to muddy this up a bit more, are some of us perhaps deluding ourselves a bit when we mix up the DWI test with the personal responsibility test applicable to carrying a deadly weapon? I must admit that I am of the school which is convinced that impairment, to some undefined extent, and variable as to individuals, results from the consumption of any alcohol. Put in a different way, some of us appear to be confusing "legal" with "right." I hope you understand that you are the last one I would accuse of this, but it seems to me that such a frame of mind is seen now and then, if not too often, here on this thread.

Tks for the helpful analysis, Steve.

Jim

[chabouk]

I found this and just had to post it up here. http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of particular interest to this thread would be this one. It is about half way down the page.

Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
Alcohol, as well as any other substance likely to impair normal mental or physical bodily functions, must not be used before or while handling or shooting guns.

This is the same NRA page that admonishes you to always keep your guns unloaded. Do you carry your ammo loose in your pocket, or keep it in the factory box?

[tacticool]

PS Just to muddy this up a bit more, are some of us perhaps deluding ourselves a bit when we mix up the DWI test with the personal responsibility test applicable to carrying a deadly weapon? I must admit that I am of the school which is convinced that impairment, to some undefined extent, and variable as to individuals, results from the consumption of any alcohol. Put in a different way, some of us appear to be confusing "legal" with "right." I hope you understand that you are the last one I would accuse of this, but it seems to me that such a frame of mind is seen now and then, if not too often, here on this thread.

Will alcohol and some medicines make me drowsy and slow reaction time? Yes, but not alter my mental state or morals to make me dangerous to myself or others. I don't get into bar fights and never did, even before I got my license. I'm not going to rob a convenience store or steal my neighbor's Lexus if I have a couple beers. That's me. If someone tells me it's different for them, I'm willing to believe them.

Ἐν οἴνῳ ἀλήθεια

[03Lightningrocks]

I found this and just had to post it up here. http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of particular interest to this thread would be this one. It is about half way down the page.

Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
Alcohol, as well as any other substance likely to impair normal mental or physical bodily functions, must not be used before or while handling or shooting guns.

This is the same NRA page that admonishes you to always keep your guns unloaded. Do you carry your ammo loose in your pocket, or keep it in the factory box?

Wrong again!

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.

Once the gun is being USED as a concealed carry weapon... it is OK to have it loaded...since it is now considered...IN USE.

[marksiwel]

I found this and just had to post it up here. http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of particular interest to this thread would be this one. It is about half way down the page.

Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
Alcohol, as well as any other substance likely to impair normal mental or physical bodily functions, must not be used before or while handling or shooting guns.

This is the same NRA page that admonishes you to always keep your guns unloaded. Do you carry your ammo loose in your pocket, or keep it in the factory box?

Wrong again!

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.

Once the gun is being USED as a concealed carry weapon... it is OK to have it loaded...since it is now considered...IN USE.

[03Lightningrocks]

Anyone ever heard of this Country Western song? I would be willing to bet that most of the folks who have caused a drunk driving accident or accidentally blasted a hunting partner while under the influence said these same words. "I can handle a couple beers"..."I only had just one".

I really don't believe I will change anyone's mind about drinking while carrying firearms on this one thread. What I am hoping is that some of you folks at least give it some thought the next time your sitting there with that beer or drink in your hands while that deadly weapon is hanging off your belt and that CHL license is in your wallet.

Furthermore, I will also say that I am somewhat disappointed that in a forum where the implied mission is furthering responsible concealed carry, a topic of drinking while carrying firearms leaves many of the more respected members here silent.


listen "Just One" by Lisa Schaffer (Lisa Schaffer)

1st Verse

Crowd gathered 'round a school bus
3rd Street at Elm
The neighbor man said, 'Officer,
I caught it all on film
I watched my little grandson
Come so close to death
By that man standin' right there
With liquor on his breath'

2nd Verse

Another little boy wasn't so lucky
He was lyin' there in the street
His little lifeless body
Beneath the yellow sheet
While the young man was on the sidewalk
Goin' through a sobriety check
The crowd was turnin' into a lynch mob
When he raised up his hands and said,

Chorus

'I only had just one
I swear that's the truth
That kid came outta nowhere
There was nothin' I could do
I couldn't swerve, I couldn't stop
Now here I am askin' God
What have I done?
I only had just one'

3rd Verse

A young momma burst through the crowd
Pulled back that yellow sheet
Collapsed and started shakin' uncontrollably
Searched until she found that young man
With her shattered eyes
Then tore a hole into his soul
As she screamed and cried,

Tag Chorus

'I only had just one
And you took him away
I hope this is somethin'
You relive every day
You could'a swerved and you could'a stopped
But you didn't, now look, my God
What have you done?
I only had just one
I only had just one'

[tacticool]

I would be willing to bet that most of the folks who have caused a driving accident or accidentally blasted a hunting partner said these same words. "I know how to drive a car." "I grew up around guns."

[03Lightningrocks]

I would be willing to bet that most of the folks who have caused a driving accident or accidentally blasted a hunting partner said these same words. "I know how to drive a car." "I grew up around guns."

I really don't believe I will change anyone's mind about drinking while carrying firearms on this one thread. What I am hoping is that some of you folks at least give it some thought the next time your sitting there with that beer or drink in your hands while that deadly weapon is hanging off your belt and that CHL is in your wallet.

[chabouk]

This is the same NRA page that admonishes you to always keep your guns unloaded. Do you carry your ammo loose in your pocket, or keep it in the factory box?

Wrong again!

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.

Once the gun is being USED as a concealed carry weapon... it is OK to have it loaded...since it is now considered...IN USE.

From a different thread:

and if you will read the rule again, you may see how your question has no relationship to this rule. I believe your referencing access, while the rule is referencing handling or shooting...such as having one on your waist or in your hands. My guns are not in use when sitting in a drawer.

So, you unload and secure your guns every time you take them off? You don't have any loaded home defense guns that aren't "being USED as a concealed carry weapon"?

If so, then I congratulate you for consistency.

I started to throw this out there, decided it was too snarky, but then I decided there's enough truth to it that I have to say it anyway: Alcohol is a powerful drug. It distorts people's judgment, impairs their ability to think clearly, and promotes hostile behavior and aggression. And sometimes people actually drink it.

[texas1234]

Is it against the law to carry while drinking and driving?

[marksiwel]

Is it against the law to carry while drinking and driving?

Only if you refuse to give the Officer a sip

[Skiprr]

Is it against the law to carry while drinking and driving?

You get today's prize for most satiric post.

...Are some of us perhaps deluding ourselves a bit when we mix up the DWI test with the personal responsibility test applicable to carrying a deadly weapon? ...Put in a different way, some of us appear to be confusing "legal" with "right."

Bingo. To me, that's why we have oft repeated--and extended--conversations about this subject. The question of legality typically starts the thread, and five pages later it's difficult to separate the "what's legal" discussion from the "what's right" discussion.

[03Lightningrocks]

This is the same NRA page that admonishes you to always keep your guns unloaded. Do you carry your ammo loose in your pocket, or keep it in the factory box?

Wrong again!

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.

Once the gun is being USED as a concealed carry weapon... it is OK to have it loaded...since it is now considered...IN USE.

From a different thread:

and if you will read the rule again, you may see how your question has no relationship to this rule. I believe your referencing access, while the rule is referencing handling or shooting...such as having one on your waist or in your hands. My guns are not in use when sitting in a drawer.

So, you unload and secure your guns every time you take them off? You don't have any loaded home defense guns that aren't "being USED as a concealed carry weapon"?

If so, then I congratulate you for consistency.

I started to throw this out there, decided it was too snarky, but then I decided there's enough truth to it that I have to say it anyway: Alcohol is a powerful drug. It distorts people's judgment, impairs their ability to think clearly, and promotes hostile behavior and aggression. And sometimes people actually drink it.

Your arguments are just flat out getting sillier with each successive post. Now you want to go into a debate about at what point a firearm is considered in use vs can be used. I am done with this as it is getting a bit absurd now. As I already said, i have no delusion of you suddenly realizing it is wrong to drink and drive or drink while handling firearms. My only real goal was for you to think about it before ordering that second or third beer while out in public and carrying a deadly weapon on your side.

What you do in your own home affects nobody but you. What you do out in public affects the rest of us.