WWII Pistol

[Tha_Veteran]

Hello All,
I just wanted to pit this out there because it is very cool and interesting to me.

I went to my aunts house and found out my grandpa had an old pistol from around the WWII era, so I asked to see it. I checked it out and found it needed a good cleaning so I offered and she obliged. I get home and hit the net looking for any info on an Astra model 600. I did not find much, but what I did find was way cool.

The gun was made in 1943 and was shipped along with 10,449 pistol to the Nazi's. This was the only shipment that made it before we interrupted their supply chains. It has the Waffenamt inspection proof, WaAD20, stamp ed on it and the serial number is 271*. I asked my grandma how did he get it, and she said that my great uncle brought it back from the war when he was there. It looks as though it has seen some action (Im no gun expert, but I know what used military weapons look like). I wish I could have the full story, but my imagination will do for now.

Thanks for reading.

ps. here is the website with a pic. I will update this thread with a pic when I get a chance.

[joe817]

That's a very nice gun! I had its baby brother, the Astra 300 in 9mm kurz. The 600 has a magazine capacity of 8 cartridges.

The 600 is found with 2 different acceptance marks: the one you described and the Eagle above WaA251. The production of the 10,499 were produced between 16 May and 16 July, 1944 and were sent to the town of Irun on the French border for German troops then occupying France. The serial number range was 51-10500. A short time later an additional 28,000 were delivered to the border, but couldn't be accepted by the Germans as they were rapidly evacuating the area as a result of the Allied invasion of Normandy. Those 28,00 were returned to Spain and impressed into service there.

Serial # 51-3000(2,950 pistols) were delivered on 16 May
Serial #3001-8000(5,000 pistols) were delivered on 23 June
Serial# 8001-10500(2,500 pistols) were delivered on 16 July

The Heereswaffenamt was solely responsible for the development of the pistol. The German designation for the pistol was: Pistole Astra 600/43. The pistol weighs 35.5 oz. It's a blowback operated semi-automatic, with no positive locking of the breech. So a VERY hefty recoil spring is wrapped around the barrel, as you can imagine. It has a magazine safety, and the slide remains locked back after the last shot is fired.

Note: The above was transcribed from Major Robt.D.Whittington III book German Pistols and Holsters 1934/1945 Military-Police-NSDAP, copyright 1969. I used that book to build my collection of German pocket pistols of WWII.

Hope that helps.

[Tha_Veteran]

Yes it does. I field stripped it and cleaned it, and it was very different on the inside. I cant wait to shoot it.

[seamusTX]

Where did you find 9 mm Largo ammunition?

A friend of mine brought an Astra 600 over to my house a couple of weeks ago for talking points. He can't find ammunition for it. It has the German proof marks and is old enough for a senior discount.

- Jim

[joe817]

9mm Largo is the same as 9 Parabellum(9mm Luger). Just as 9mm Corto is actually 9mm Kurz, or .380 semi-automatic.

An interesting side story is that the Germans also contracted Astra for the Pistole Astra 400 for 12,000 pistols. The Germans took possession of only 4,500 on Oct. 18, 1941. Apparently the Germans didn't notice until trial testing had begun that the Astra 400 was chambered for the 9mm Bergman-Baynard cartridge, a much more powerful round than the 9mm Luger. The standard 9mm Luger round of the German Armed Forces would not function in the model 400, so the contract was suspended.

If it has Nazi proofmarks on it, rest assured it's chambered for 9mm Luger.

[seamusTX]

My understanding, without going into the minute details of case dimensions, is that 9 mm Luger is 9 x 19 and 9 mm Largo is 9 x 23.

I am by no means an expert, and I have never even seen a round labeled as 9 mm Largo.

- Jim

[joe817]

My understanding, without going into the minute details of case dimensions, is that 9 mm Luger is 9 x 19 and 9 mm Largo is 9 x 23.

I am by no means an expert, and I have never even seen a round labeled as 9 mm Largo. - Jim

Jim, I'm certainly not saying you are wrong. In fact I may be the one in error. Is it possible that gun you're referring to is actually an Astra model 400, instead of the model 600 we've been talking about? If it is, it's REALLY a collectors item.

9mm Largo just may be another way of saying 9mm Bergmann-Bayard. In all honesty I've never seen a model 400, due to their rarity. Only the models 600 & 300.

Is the right side of the chamber marked " PIST. PATR. 08 " ? That should be on the model 600 in 9mm Luger.

Gosh I'd love to look at both guns. Not that I could tell you all about it. I just like to coddle old guns.

Oh! What is the German proofmark? It should be a funky looking "stick" eagle with some letters and/or numbers under it. the Germans used about 30 different known one's.

[Mike1951]

http://www.9mmlargo.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.9mmlargo.com/cartridge/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In 1903 the Flemish (people from Belgium) were considering a new standard service pistol for their Army. This pistol was the Bergmann #6 and it was chambered in the then new 9mm Bergmann cartridge, which had been developed parrallel with the pistol.

In the early part of the 20th century the United States was also looking to upgrade from a service revolver to an automatic. In 1906 and 1907 they tested the 9mm Bergmann cartridge in service pistol trials. The United States decided not to adopt the 9mm Bergmann and eventually the Browning designed M1911 and .45ACP cartridge as the new U.S. service pistol. How different things would be today had they decided to adopt the 9mm Bergmann?

In 1907 the Spanish began production of this cartridge at the Pirotecnia Militar de Sevilla. The next year, 1908, the Spanish adopted the Bermann Modelo 1908 as their official sidearm and began manufacturing the round with the designation 9mm Largo. This was the beginning of a a long history of 9mm Largo service to the Spanish Military and Police.

[chabouk]

I know you've already cleaned it, but whenever you encounter a vintage firearm, you must be careful not to over-clean it. Brush off the dust and lightly oil the metal, and that's about it. More than that can ruin the remaining finish, and "patina" is prized in collectibles.

[seamusTX]

Joe, my friend told me it was a 600, and I took his word for it. I don't recall seeing the number 600 anywhere on it. It said "Astra," and, if I recall correctly, fabrica en España or something like that. The proof mark was a typical eagle that the Nazis used, and some letters and numbers that meant nothing to me. I only looked at it for a minute and didn't take a photo.

The machining and action were as solid as you could want. The grip stocks seemed like Bakelite or some similar, obsolete synthetic.

It may have been a WW II battlefield pickup, but my friend doesn't have a provenance for it. As you know, many veterans brought such weapons home, and they ended up in garage sales.

Sorry for my ignorance and lack of curiosity. You might think, with my interest in history, I would appreciate holding it in my hands. OTOH, I have little interest in Nazi relics.

- Jim

[joe817]

Never any need to apologize Jim. I love having these conversations. They are fascinating. Thanks for a great chat.

[KFP]

Where did you find 9 mm Largo ammunition?

A friend of mine brought an Astra 600 over to my house a couple of weeks ago for talking points. He can't find ammunition for it. It has the German proof marks and is old enough for a senior discount.

- Jim

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/ ... -9mm-largo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[seamusTX]

Wow. 100 rounds for $20. Thanks.

- Jim

[Tha_Veteran]

The pistol has ammo with it, it looks older, but functionable. The ammo is 9mm Luger, but 2 different models I guess. On one the brass is shorter by a few mm's, but other than that they are the same. It does have the PIST. PATR. 08 on the barrel. I have checked all markings.

[KFP]

As I understand 9mm rounds there are four flavors: 9x17 (.380 or Short), 9x18 (Makarov), 9x19 (9mm Luger), and 9x23 (Largo).

Because there are a variety of rounds that would fit, doesn't necessarily mean that they should be used in your gun. I would encourage you to figure out exactly which rounds the gun is designed for and buy some new ammo to run through it. This way you don't ruin your gun, or hurt yourself in the process.

Sounds like a great piece! Enjoy!