Carry in a grocery store that sells alcohol???

[C-dub]

There are also some old signs on some old stop and robs that sell alcohol that say it is illegal to possess a gun on the premises. Those are all from way before the CHL came around. And some of them are right next to the newer "Unlicensed Possession" signs. They just didn't bother to take the old ones down.

[dihappy]

What you more than likely saw was this sign:



This sign is required at any location that sells alcohol for on or off-premise consumption and makes less that 51% of its revenue from the alcohol sales. It is OK to carry past as long as they don't have a 30.06 sign posted also.

Hey Keith, or anyone,

Do you know if that sign is actually "REQUIRED" for businessess who choose NOT to post a 30.06?

Edit: I think i found the answer on TABC website, and i think the sign is a requirement.

[android]

Here's my software engineering view of the whole deal

if (legal 30.06 sign is present)
{
go away.
}

If (you can buy booze there)
{
if ( you can drink it there)
{
if (revenue from booze > 51%)
{
leave gun at home
}
}
else carry away
}


This didn't format well, but I hope you get the gist of it.

[NcongruNt]

What you more than likely saw was this sign:



This sign is required at any location that sells alcohol for on or off-premise consumption and makes less that 51% of its revenue from the alcohol sales. It is OK to carry past as long as they don't have a 30.06 sign posted also.

Hey Keith, or anyone,

Do you know if that sign is actually "REQUIRED" for businessess who choose NOT to post a 30.06?

Edit: I think i found the answer on TABC website, and i think the sign is a requirement.

Yes, any TABC-licensed establishment has to post one of the two signs. 51% establishments are required to post the red 51% sign. Everyone else who sells under a TABC license has to post the sign above. Now, whether this happens in reality is another story. There are also the confused merchants (mainly restaurants in my experience) who improperly post 51% signs even though they are obviously not 51% locations. The stickler in the law is that it depends on if they are actually 51% locations as determined by TABC, not what signs they post.

We also have the recently-enacted law that provides a defense to prosecution for carrying in a 51% location that does not post signs on all entrances to clearly identify it as a 51% location. While far from a resolution to the haziness of proper notification, it's certainly a small step in the right direction.

[android]

If the location sells alcohol AT ALL, then by law they must post one of two signs; either the sign above if they make under 51% of their revenue from alcohol sales, or a 51% sign if more that 51% of their revenue from alcohol.

You will see WAY more of the unlicensed signs since the majority of the locations sell other things to gain the majority of their revenue from, but they still have to post a sign per the TABC laws.

Yes, but it is > 51% of revenue from alcohol consumed on the premises. A liquor store is a blue sign and you can certainly carry in one even though they probably make way more than 50% of revenue from booze.

[dicion]

Here's my software engineering view of the whole deal

Your code needs a revision

Code: Select all

if (legal 30.06 sign is present) && ($PROPERTY != "Government Owned or Leased")
{ 
   go away.
]
else
 If (you can buy booze there)  :cool: 
 {
    if ( you can drink it there)  :cheers2: 
    {
       if (revenue from booze > 51%)  :anamatedbanana  :anamatedbanana 
      {
          leave gun at home  :rules: 
      }
    }
 }
 else carry away  :thumbs2: 

This does not cover anything like courthouses, secured areas of police stations, etc, however

[stvbrx]

Here is the sign:
It is different from everything discussed in this thread so far.

[RPB]

Here is the sign:
It is different from everything discussed in this thread so far.

That sign refers to TABC Section 61.11 and Tx Penal Code 46.02 (below)



Texas Alcoholic Beverage Code - Section 61.11. Warning Sign Required
§ 61.11. WARNING SIGN REQUIRED. (a) Each holder of a
license who is not otherwise required to display a sign under
Section 411.204, Government Code, shall display in a prominent
place on the license holder's premises a sign giving notice that it
is unlawful for a person to carry a weapon on the premises unless
the weapon is a concealed handgun of the same category the person is
licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(b) The sign must be at least 6 inches high and 14 inches
wide, must appear in contrasting colors, and shall be displayed in a
conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public. The commission or
administrator may require the holder of the license to also display
the sign in a language other than English if it can be observed or
determined that a substantial portion of the expected customers
speak the other language as their familiar language.



Now, what does the sign purport to restrict:
TX Penal Code Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

(1) the handgun is in plain view; or

(2) the person is:

(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;

(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or

(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.
---------

If concealed, you aren't comitting any offense 1)
Don't engage in any criminal activity and you are OK under A)
If licensed, you obviousy aren't prohibted from having a handgun under B)
You better not join any street gangs, else you would commit an offense under C)
And, the exception in TABC 61.11 says you can carry there if you have your CHL, since you are exempt from the general prohibition to carry there by virtue of your license, ... just don't plain view it or join a street gang or engage in criminal activity there



Essentially, I'd consider that an outdated BLUE TABC *under 51%* sign and you can carry there.


To be in compliance with TABC, they should replace the outdated sign with the one Keith B posted above, but even the outdated one still doesn't keep a CHL from carrying there legally. The old sign only mentions a $5,000 fine for unlicensed carry there, but the new sign shows $10,000 fine for unlicensed carry there.

My general "Rule of Thumb" is === If you don't see a COMPLIANT - OVER 51% RED sign , and don't see a COMPLIANT 30.06 sign, it's probably safer and wiser (and legal, unless otherwise a prohibited place/federal property/school building etc etc) to go on and carry there than risk having a gun in plain view while unholstering it to store in your car.
In other words, Learn the TWO signs that prohibit carrying in a place, ignore all other signs which are not compliant. And, learn places that are prohibited.

Like c-dub said, Some convenience stores, restaurants etc may still have that OUTDATED "under 51%/off premise" sign, but you can carry there if licensed, because it isn't an "over 51% nor 30.06 sign".



I ain't an attorney. (Ain't is a contraction of AM not, as opposed to han't or hain't or hadn't = has not or have not or had not .... Ain't is NOT a contraction or ARE not, please use "aren't" for that)

[joe817]

Very colorful explanation RPB (in more ways than one) I tend to agree with you.

[srothstein]

Essentially, I'd consider that an outdated BLUE TABC *under 51%* sign and you can carry there.

This is exactly correct. That is the old sign that was required by TABC and the Code before the CHL laws passed. It is not valid and should have been replaced.

The good news is that this is one of those cases where the posting makes no difference. The law is what counts. In this case, the law is as was quoted. You can carry there with a CHL.

[Oldgringo]

Our little hamlet elected to allow the sale of beer and wine last May. I noticed that our one grocery store has posted the sign that Keith B showed us above. I happen to know that the store MGR. has a CHL but I don't think he carries in the store?

What else I've noticed since the election is that there has not been the predicted increase in crime, auto accidents, spouse abuse or trash in the streets but there has been a dramatic increase in sales tax revenue for our little burg.

Uh oh, I better get back on track. The posted sign mentioned above does not concern me as I am licensed to carry.

[RPB]

For you programmers/scripters:

( I don't drink, but I do carry)

My "program" Flowchart

IF alcohol present, but NOT for ON PREMISE consumption

AND no compliant 30.06 sign
AND not an otherwise a place prohibited to carry/Federal Property/School/Court Building/etc.
IGNORE all non-compliant signs and smile.

HOWEVER:

IF 51% income from alcohol sale for on premise consumption,
AND red 51% sign
THEN Do not enter with weapons, do not pass go, don't have any "get out of jail free" cards.

IF 51% income from alcohol sale for on premise consumption,
AND NO red 51% sign
THEN Do not enter with weapons, do not pass go, don't have any "get out of jail free" cards or $ to pay lawyer for defense.

-----------

That's "my program, yours may vary with a different operating system" ....
(I personally do not go to places which derive over 51% of their income from sales of alcohol, whether it is for on premise consumption or not)
You may or may not want to carry a gun into a bar which has no compliant red 51% sign <insert It's stupid icon here> if you .....want to commit an offense.....enjoy jail.....want to go bankrupt on defense lawyer's legal fees ...want to lose your CHL and .... lose your expensive weapon.....I wouldn't.
++++++++++++++
Edited as Keith pointed out a deficiency.
Thanks, Keith, you're right, I needed to fix that, I was thinking of grocery stores ( Even unarmed, I avoid 51% places where there is on premise consumption) .... I'll revised it for clarity.

[Keith B]

For you programmers/scripters:

LOL

My "program"

IF no compliant red 51% sign
AND no compliant 30.06 sign
AND not an otherwise a place prohibited to carry/Federal Property/School/Court Building/etc.
IGNORE all non-compliant signs and smile.

I see one flaw in your program; 51% sign or not, it is still illegal to carry in a 51% establishment. The only think the absence of a red sign provides is a DEFENSE to prosecution only. You can still be arrested.

[RPB]

Thanks Keith, you'r right ... I revised it above


Reminds me once when I worked at MSN and programmed 2 things to respond to each other and created an infinite loop <embarassed>

[92f-fan]

I see one flaw in your program; 51% sign or not, it is still illegal to carry in a 51% establishment. The only think the absence of a red sign provides is a DEFENSE to prosecution only. You can still be arrested.

if you cant count on the legally required signs how are you expected to know what % of the revenue comes from what ?

Just never carry anywhere alcohol MIGHT be served whether you can see it or not ?