7 killed at Ft Hood shooting

[joe817]

"Fort Hood suspect's links to imam said to be al-Qaeda backer come under scrutiny":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 18405.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I pray that there is no connection here.

[chabouk]

I don't think this shooting, as horrific and terrifying as it was, qualifies as "terrorism".

Terrorism is a strategy, an overall campaign, rather than a single act. By definition, it seeks to instill widespread fear by attacking innocent and neutral parties multiple times, disrupting life by creating "terror" that it can happen again at any time, anywhere.

This was mass murder, not terrorism.

[casingpoint]

It's virtually a given there is a connection between Hasan and radical Islam. He has performed exactly as individual sleeper cells are charged to do by Al Qaeda, independent of a central command structure and support. This is guerrilla warfare at it's best, and certainly was an act of the type of random terrorism espoused by Osama Bin Laden after 911. Perhaps Hasan was the last of them, or more likely, a forerunner of more to come. Pray the idiots inside the Washington, D.C. Beltway who let this problem develop both in and outside of the U.S. military handle it appropriately rather than in a politically correct manner.

[ghostrider]

>This was mass murder, not terrorism.


Definition #2 seems to apply:

===============================================================
http://terrorism.about.com/od/whatister ... rism_5.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
===============================================================

Definition of Terrorism under U.S. Law


United States Law Code – the law that governs the entire country – contains a definition of terrorism embedded in its requirement that Annual Country reports on Terrorism be submitted by the Secretary of State to Congress every year. (From U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d)
(d) Definitions
As used in this section—
(1) the term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than 1 country;
(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;
(3) the term “terrorist group” means any group, or which has significant subgroups which practice, international terrorism;
(4) the terms “territory” and “territory of the country” mean the land, waters, and airspace of the country; and
(5) the terms “terrorist sanctuary” and “sanctuary” mean an area in the territory of the country—
(A) that is used by a terrorist or terrorist organization—
(i) to carry out terrorist activities, including training, fundraising, financing, and recruitment; or
(ii) as a transit point; and
(B) the government of which expressly consents to, or with knowledge, allows, tolerates, or disregards such use of its territory and is not subject to a determination under—
(i) section 2405(j)(1)(A) of the Appendix to title 50;
(ii) section 2371 (a) of this title; or
(iii) section 2780 (d) of this title.
===============================================================
===============================================================

[srothstein]

Ghostrider, definition 2 would specifically exclude this from being terrorism. Note that it must be against "non-combatants" and this was against uniformed soldiers on duty. The one civilian was employed by the military. given that the medical personnel are non-combatants only under the Geneva Conventions (which does not apply to this war), then the people were all combatants.

We would also have to prove that the major was a clandestine agent. We don't quit eknow that.

I think it was politically motivated and I consider it terrorism, but proving this in a court of law, using the law may be much different from my opinion.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

http://blogs.chron.com/txpotomac/2009/1 ... ley_f.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The above link answers the question "What was she carrying?"

She was using a Beretta M9, 9mm handgun.

She is 34, mother of 2 children (15 and 2), was a South Carolina surfer girl,
is a veteran herself, and married to her 2nd husband, a deployed military man.
She is 5'2" tall. Lots of warrior spirit in a petite package!!

She is a member of the Fort Hood PD's SWAT team and had just completed an
80 hour advanced firearms and tactics course.

Lessons were learned from the Virginia Tech massacre and employed during the
Fort Hood incident. Ms Munley and her partner immediately entered the building
and rushed to engage the active shooter, as opposed to the Columbine and Va Tech
police reponses (surround the bldg, do not enter, and allow the active shooter to
kill even more people).

SIA

[chabouk]

It's virtually a given there is a connection between Hasan and radical Islam. He has performed exactly as individual sleeper cells are charged to do by Al Qaeda, independent of a central command structure and support.

No, an individual sleeper cell would be trying his best to appear enthusiastic about his service until the time came to strike. He would eschew (outwardly) any religious or cultural ties (like regularly attending prayers at mosque, wearing cultural garb, etc.)

Hasan did the opposite of what a sleeper would do: he hired a lawyer to try to get out of the Army, was open in his criticism of the war, practiced his religion ardently, and wore Middle Eastern attire.

Nobody made Hasan do what he did. He acted alone. If we accept that he was somehow controlled, then we have to accept that Right-to-Life forced Eric Rudolph to bomb abortion clinics. I rejected that: both criminals acted as individuals.

[frazzled]

http://blogs.chron.com/txpotomac/2009/1 ... ley_f.html

The above link answers the question "What was she carrying?"

She was using a Beretta M9, 9mm handgun.

She is 34, mother of 2 children (15 and 2), was a South Carolina surfer girl,
is a veteran herself, and married to her 2nd husband, a deployed military man.
She is 5'2" tall. Lots of warrior spirit in a petite package!!

She is a member of the Fort Hood PD's SWAT team and had just completed an
80 hour advanced firearms and tactics course.

Lessons were learned from the Virginia Tech massacre and employed during the
Fort Hood incident. Ms Munley and her partner immediately entered the building
and rushed to engage the active shooter, as opposed to the Columbine and Va Tech
police reponses (surround the bldg, do not enter, and allow the active shooter to
kill even more people).

SIA

Can someone with more expertise help me out here.
Am I correct in that she was a civilian police officer?
This was on the base itself correct?
If so 1. where were the MPs shooting at the guy? 2. How did she get on the base? I am not understanding how this works.

[Purplehood]

It's virtually a given there is a connection between Hasan and radical Islam. He has performed exactly as individual sleeper cells are charged to do by Al Qaeda, independent of a central command structure and support.

No, an individual sleeper cell would be trying his best to appear enthusiastic about his service until the time came to strike. He would eschew (outwardly) any religious or cultural ties (like regularly attending prayers at mosque, wearing cultural garb, etc.)

Hasan did the opposite of what a sleeper would do: he hired a lawyer to try to get out of the Army, was open in his criticism of the war, practiced his religion ardently, and wore Middle Eastern attire.

Nobody made Hasan do what he did. He acted alone. If we accept that he was somehow controlled, then we have to accept that Right-to-Life forced Eric Rudolph to bomb abortion clinics. I rejected that: both criminals acted as individuals.

Being a sleeper agent and being a dedicated sleeper agent can be two entirely different things.

I really dislike the old "if, then" logic fallacy.

[Oldgringo]

chabouk wrote:

Nobody made Hasan do what he did.

Does it have to be a person who makes one do what one does? I think not. One can be driven by demons and/or ideology and/or religious beliefs and/or just plain crazy pants. In my mind, this guy's actions clearly demonstrate that he knew exactly what he was going to do, where he was going to do it, when he was going to do it and with what weapon.

Furthermore, an unarmed and defenseless person, even in uniform, can hardly be called a combatant, can they? Bus drivers wear uniforms and they aren't usually combatants.

I'm sickened and fearful that the military did not act on the signals before this happened and now are unwilling to call it what it was. It was an act of domestic terrorism.

[57Coastie]

chabouk wrote:

Nobody made Hasan do what he did.

Does it have to be a person who makes one do what one does? I think not. One can be driven by demons and/or ideology and/or religious beliefs and/or just plain crazy pants. In my mind, this guy's actions clearly demonstrate that he knew exactly what he was going to do, where he was going to do it, when he was going to do it and with what weapon.

Furthermore, an unarmed and defenseless person, even in uniform, can hardly be called a combatant, can they? Bus drivers where uniforms and they aren't usually combatants.

I'm sickened and fearful that the military did not act on the signals before this happened and now are unwilling to call it what it was. It was an act of domestic terrorism.

It will take a while, OldGringo, but the Army's stone wall appears to be starting to fall.

Lieberman will seek committee hearing on Fort Hood shootings

(CNN) - Sen. Joseph Lieberman said Sunday he intends to launch a Senate committee hearing on whether the Fort Hood shootings were a terrorist act and if the Army should have taken pre-emptive steps due to reported signs of Islamic extremism by the suspected gunman.

"I'm intending to begin a congressional investigation of my Homeland Security Committee into what were the motives of (Maj. Nidal Malik) Hasan in carrying out this mass murder," the Connecticut independent, who belongs to the Democratic caucus, said on "FOX News Sunday."

If Hasan was showing signs of being an Islamic extremist, the Army should have acted on that earlier and "he should have been gone," said Lieberman, the chairman of the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee.

Saying it was too early to know Hasan's exact motive, Lieberman declared that if reports of the alleged gunman's possible Islamic extremism are true, then "the murder of these 13 people was a terrorist act."

"We don't know enough to say now," Lieberman said, noting what he called "strong warning signs" that Hasan had become an Islamic extremist."

Jim

[dicion]

Can someone with more expertise help me out here.
Am I correct in that she was a civilian police officer?
This was on the base itself correct?
If so 1. where were the MPs shooting at the guy? 2. How did she get on the base? I am not understanding how this works.

Never been on Ft. Hood itself, but I am former military.

I don't know where the MP's were, thats a good question.
The answer probably has something to do with the fact that calling 911 from a cell phone goes to the civilian authorities, so they possibly would have been notified first, before the MP's.

As to how she got on, I know at all bases I was at, there was an 'emergency vehicle' policy. If one's approaching the gate, running hot, you open the gate for them and let them through. Work out the whys and whos later. This applies to ambulances, fire trucks, police, etc. The gate guards aren't going to stop an obviously marked emergency vehicle running sirens and lights and question them.

[Lodge2004]

Can someone with more expertise help me out here.
Am I correct in that she was a civilian police officer?
This was on the base itself correct?
If so 1. where were the MPs shooting at the guy? 2. How did she get on the base? I am not understanding how this works.

DOD police. Lot's of MP's are deployed overseas so the military tends to rely on civil service and contractors to provide security at military installations at home.

[edmart001]

Can someone with more expertise help me out here.
Am I correct in that she was a civilian police officer?
This was on the base itself correct?
If so 1. where were the MPs shooting at the guy? 2. How did she get on the base? I am not understanding how this works.

My understanding is that she is a civilian police officer for the Department of the Army who worked at Fort Hood. When I visited my son who was stationed at Fort Benning, it seemed to me that the majority of the police activity was carried out by these officers. Most of the MPs seemed to either be deployed or getting ready to do so.

[frazzled]

Thanks for the info.