Is this sign valid?

[SW-14]

Last night I went to the Fox and Hound Pub and Grill. They had a sign inside the front door on the wall that said something like "The licensed or unlicensed possession of a handgun on these premises is subject to $10,000 fine and blah blah blah...."

This sign did not mention the 51% rule at all, and there was no 30.06 sign, so I'm wondering if I was legally obligated to not carry. As I understand from the new law that recently went into affect, it is a defense to prosecution that against the 51% law if a sign is not posted.

[chad745]

Carry away.

[dicion]

Last night I went to the Fox and Hound Pub and Grill. They had a sign inside the front door on the wall that said something like "The licensed or unlicensed possession of a handgun on these premises is subject to $10,000 fine and blah blah blah...."

This sign did not mention the 51% rule at all, and there was no 30.06 sign, so I'm wondering if I was legally obligated to not carry. As I understand from the new law that recently went into affect, it is a defense to prosecution that against the 51% law if a sign is not posted.

I'm pretty sure you misread the sign. It sounds like a standard Non-51% Sign, which reads: "The unlicensed posession of a handgun.... blah blah"

A CHL is Licensed posession, so therefore that sign does not apply.

I believe someone here actually checked the Fox & Hound specifically once, and verified the sign. You might want to go re-read it next time you're there.

If it is indeed a custom sign that says 'licensed or unlicensed posession' then it carries no weight, at all.

If you're concerned, ask them to see their TABC license. They have to display it to the public, by law. If they refuse to display it, call the TABC.

Halfway down the license, it will either say:

SIGN = BLUE
or
SIGN = RED

If it says RED, that means it is a 51% location. If it says BLUE, it is not.

[SW-14]

No, it definitely said "Licensed or unlicensed". I did a double take because I don't ever remember seeing a sign like that before. I've seen the ones that say only "unlicensed possession" many times before. I went ahead and carried anyways.

[joe817]

Here is the actual wording of the TABC 51% sign:

HERE is the "51% sign" wording:

" —FELONY NOTICE—
The licensed or unlicensed possession of a weapon on
these premises is a felony
with a maximum penalty of
10 years imprisonment and
a fine not to exceed $10,000.
Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission
P.O. Box 13127 Austin, Texas 78711-3127
Toll Free 1-888-THE-TABC (Voice/TDD)"

It can be found on P.109, of the 2004 edition of the Alcoholic Beverage Retailer's Guide - What Every Alcoholic Beverage Retailer Should Know:

http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publication ... ay9712.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There was a lengthy discussion on it. Crossfire found the actual sign. This thread is worth a read:

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 30&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If I were to see that sign, I'd definitely not carry in there, and go somewhere else. IMO, that's asking for trouble.

[SW-14]

The sign they had contained the same wording as the sign in that thread, but it did not have the big red "51%" in the background, nor did it have a sign in Spanish.

[joe817]

That would have been enough for me to go and actually look at the license itself. It's probably a 51% establishment. And if it was I'd be heading out the door. I've no yearning to be a test case.

[Oldgringo]

When in danger or doubt...bug out.

[joe817]

When in danger or doubt...bug out.

Amen.

[karder]

Joe817 is right. This sounds like a 51% sign. As a bar owner, I know that a lot of places don't do a very good job of posting their 51% signs. The reason for this is because that 51% designation sign is like the scarlet letter. If you are a bar, you always have one or two neighbors who will make it their mission in life to shut you down. False police reports, false calls to the TABC, you name it. I have the most boring bar you guys have ever seen, but so far this year one particular neighbor has called the police or TABC on nearly 50 different occasions. Not one signal citation has every been issued. You can be doing a 100% respectable business but have some angry neighbor who calls the police every time a cat knocks over a trash can. The police come to the door, are very polite, ask if they can come in, do the walk through, determine nothing is wrong and leave. As soon as they walk out the door, all the customers take off and you are paying mortgage on a bar with no customers! Pretty frustrating, but the neighbors know this and do it frequently. I had one time where the neighbors called the cops because there were motorcycles parked out front! Ironically, the guys ridding the bikes were off duty cops! The patrol guys walk in, see their buddies, walk over and talk to them for about 15 minutes, and then leave without even talking to the manager. As soon as they are gone, everyone but the biker cops disappear! The cops here are cool and realize we are being targeted by one neighbor. We are at the point now where the patrol guys don't even come in anymore, they just drive by slowly with their window rolled down and don't even stop, but it still hurts business.
Those those 51% should be right at the door, but there are a lot of places, which are restaurants and bars, and which barely make the 51% designation. Those guys will post the sign and try to sorta hide it around the corner a bit. They are not supposed to do this, but it is pretty common. I for one am trying hard to lose my 51% designation so I can ditch that sign and be a restaurant which serves alcohol rather than a bar that serves food. It makes a big difference.

[TexCaboCat]

The sign that is being talked about is required by anyone with a liquor license in the state of texas. It has nothing to do with being a 51% facility or not. I have had to put those signs up in every restaurant I have ever ran for the last 20 years. With that being said I would be willing to bet that the Fox and Hound is over the 51% of alcohol sales and would not carry in that bar, but the sign they are posting you will find in everyplace that sales alcohol, including restaurants, bars, movie theaters, convenience stores and grocery stores.

[Keith B]

The sign they had contained the same wording as the sign in that thread, but it did not have the big red "51%" in the background, nor did it have a sign in Spanish. .

Sounds like they are trying to post a 51% sign, but not quite got it all there. is it possible it is posted on a window that the tint is blocking the red 51%? If I recall correctly, most Fox and Hounds that have been checked were actually 51% establishments. While they do sell food, it is small in comparison to the alcohol sales amount.

Which location was this one? If it is the one close to me I will check it.

Also, doesn't have to have Spanish, just the wording and 51% in red.

For a general answer from TABC, see http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/faq/general.asp#general" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; question 10.

[3dfxMM]

but the sign they are posting you will find in everyplace that sales alcohol, including restaurants, bars, movie theaters, convenience stores and grocery stores.

No, they specifically mentioned that the sign referenced licensed possession of a firearm. Only the 51% sign does that. The ones in non-51% establishments that sell alcoholic beverages only reference unlicensed possession of a firearm.

[Keith B]

OK folks, to quote Bill Engvall, 'Here's your sign."



Per the TABC Retailers guide at http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publication ... de2004.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TEXAS ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE COMMISSION 109
PART EIGHT: GENERAL INFORMATION

This sign gives notice that it is unlawful to carry a weapon on the premises.

On-premises retailers must post one of two different weapons signs. If:

• you do not hold a Food and Beverage Certificate, and your alcoholic beverage sales are 51% or more of your business, use the “51% Weapons Warning Sign”
• you hold a Food and Beverage Certificate or you make less than 51% of your income from the sale of alcoholic beverages, use the “Notice Weapons Warning Sign”

On-premises retailers must:
• prominently display this sign on the premises at each public entrance
• make sign at least 6 inches high and 14 inches wide
• use contrasting colors
• post the 51% sign at each entrance of place of business

The local district office provides these signs in English and Spanish free of charge to retailers.

Note: The retailer may be required to display the sign in a language other than English if a substantial portion of customers speak another native language.

Section IV:
On-premises licensees and permittees must keep detailed records for four years to substantiate the alcoholic beverage sales ratio breakdown between:
• food
• alcoholic beverages
• other major sales categories

Note: These records may be examined by a Commission representative.

[kgdotcom]

Does a Business that qualifies to have a legitimate 51% sign have to display it at the entrance of the business?

How do you know if it legitimately gets 51 % of its business from the sale of Alcohol?


These questions arise from an outing at a local pool hall in Fort Worth. I didn't see any 30.06/51% sign upon entering after shooting pool for a while when we went to leave I noticed the 51% sign by the register and ask if they were a 51% business and was told that they were. I tried to look the up on the TABC website and couldn't find them on there. I sent the TABC an email inquiring whether or not they were a 51% business and haven't received a response yet.