Restaurant Robbers

[joe817]

I LIKE IT!

[HVW]

Thank you for the clear, level-headed and intelligent responses to the post. The days of the "Outlaw Gangs" may be returning, given this situation and recent cases of Home Invasions and gang-bangers running in packs. Every case is different and I knew there were no easy answers but there is comfort in hearing from CHL'ers who help develop ideas that could save lives. Stay safe!

[Keith]

The video cracked me up!

[C-dub]

If it's the one Beiruty was thinking of it's interesting that Captain Kirk is now being referred to as the Priceline Guy. Oh well, not everyone's a trekkie.

[mgood]

I can't really say, "This is what I'd do." It's going to depend on the situation of course.
Multiple gun-wielding bad guys storm into the joint, good chance that you're stuck, right then. Play it cool and hope they make a mistake that gives you a chance to either run or fight. (And though we have a right to stand our ground, that doesn't mean it's always the best tactical move. If I can get out of that situation, it's certainly an option I'd consider.)
Suzanna Gratia said there were multiple times the guy in Luby's had his back to her and she would not have had to be an expert shot to end it right there. Ok, that's with one guy. Multiple bad guys and, maybe they end up in one general area with no innocents in my line of fire, not looking my way, some even have their back to me, hmm, maybe a good time to draw and start shooting. But six guys widely scattered through the place, lots of innocent people everywhere . . . may be best to keep the gun in the holster unless there is just no other way.

I agree with whoever said don't let them move you to another location. Period. Better to do your fighting out front, even with a good chance of innocent people being hurt, than to be in the back room with your hands and feet duct taped when the BGs decide they don't want to leave witnesses.

If they just want the money from the register, that's absolutely not worth risking someone getting shot over. If they're robbing customers, the risk-reward ratio goes up a little. If they're hurting people, that changes it more.

So there are times I would definitely fight and there are times I would just stay calm and try to be a good witness. But in between there are lots of gray areas that would just have to be evaluated on the scene.

I do believe these "what if" games are healthy though. It makes people think about what they would do in certain situations. Just having thought it through may be the difference that keeps someone alive.

[C-dub]

Our best weapon is between our ears. Do what is needed to survive, no matter how much it hurts our ego.

[KFP]

You mean this one?
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I loved that show, too bad I didn't get into it before the last season.

[mgood]

Our best weapon is between our ears. Do what is needed to survive, no matter how much it hurts our ego.

I spent 30 minutes typing and you just summed it all up with one line.
I agree with this statement 100%.

[drjoker]

My wife makes fun of me for doing so, but I always try to sit with my back to the wall and next to an exit. Every time I enter a room, I take stock of everyone there and try my best to "make" or identify other fellow CHL carriers (who might come to my aid). I also make a mental note of any possible perps (young guys with hoodies on a TX summer day).

In this situation, I would not try to guess whether they're "peaceful" robbers or if they'll kill someone. My wife would make a beeline for the door (she's good at that) and I'll run behind the metal door post and start shooting from that cover. Most of the young "homies" have never been to the range to practice. They are poor shots. A few are crack shots just back from Iraq (our government has been desperate for recruits, so they have been "overlooking" some criminal records). I would shoot the most confident one (best shot) or leader first. I'll save the ones who are sitting next to other CHL carriers to be shot last (they might come to my aid, but as I've read on this forum, probably not). Once one of them go down, the others will flee. Thugs are lazy. If they weren't lazy, they'd be gainfully employed, right? Shooting it out for a cash register till is hard work. Trust me, they'll flee. Faced with combat stress, people will either freeze, fight, or flee. The fighter is probably the leader, that's why he gets shot first. The ones who freeze with a gun in their hand will be shot next. Thugs who flee will be spared. So, although it seems like you're fighting enormous odds, with the proper tactical mindset, you're only fighting ONE perp. In a group of 6 perps, only the leader will probably fight, but the others will either flee or freeze. If your family is safely out the door and you have cover behind a metal door post, then you could effectively defeat a group of 6 perps.

Some poster mentioned that he was afraid that he'll accidentally hit another diner. In such a situation, most diners will be underneath their tables. Firing head shots at the only people standing upright, the perps, will place the shots far enough away from the diners so that even if you miss, you won't hit a diner.

I am a big chicken and I am not a brave man, HOWEVER sometimes a MAN has to do what a MAN has to do. A real man would defend the innocent against thugs. Plus, if they're in the open waving guns around and you have cover, YOU have the tactical advantage even though you are seemingly outnumbered (seemingly outnumbered because only the leader is the fighter in most thug gangs, so you're only fighting one person).

I once knew an elderly Chinese man who held back THOUSANDS of armed Japanese with just a musket (not even a gun!). The Japanese have a rule that they cannot allow enemy soldiers to be left alive behind their lines, so this Chinese gentleman and his buddy were going to fire a shot from old muskets then hide. While the Japanese were looking for them, their families will evacuate their village and hide in the mountains. His buddy chickened out but he fired a shot and hid. It took the Japanese hours to find his buddy and kill him (ironic, huh?). Thinking they found their shooter, they stopped looking for the shooter and left the Chinese man in hiding. Meanwhile in the hours that they took to find and kill his buddy, his village was able to run and hide in the mountains. He saved his entire family and all his neighbors. If my elderly Chinese friend can fight off thousands of armed Japanese with an antique musket, YOU might be surprised to find yourself able to fend off 6 measly "homies" !



P.S. Other villages did not do so good. The Japanese used babies instead of clay pigeons for target practice in neighboring towns. In the other thread about an armed restaurant holdup in Arizona, the thugs killed a restaurant employee for sport. Do YOU want to bet that they'll only take "stuff" and not shoot you or your family for sport? I'd rather bet that if I shoot the leader, the rest will either freeze or flee. Putting yourself at the mercy of thugs never ends well.

[mgood]

Sounds good. And it may work out like that. But I wouldn't count on it.
Gang members shoot at members of rival gangs frequently.
One issue police have now is that it is the "homies" who have more experience under fire than the cops.
Also, most gang members know a fellow gang member who's been shot. Most of the don't die. And many are not afraid of being shot.

[casingpoint]

The Albuquerque, NM Dennys incident reminded me of the circa 1979 daylight robbery of the Dennys on I-45 North in Houston near Greens Road. Three or four guys hit the place and killed seven patrons. What would I do? Before I do anything, I think I'll read this again for the overview:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... able_N.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then I'll reflect on a business associate of mine strung up in his barn near Palestine, TX and bludgeoned with a hammer before he was shot to death with with his own gun by three escaped convicts from Mississippi.

I recall the little fueling station in Jasper, TX next to the government housing project where a truck driver was shot to death at the pumps in the early morning hours in 1991. The same pumps I fueled at in the late 1980's, sometimes in the dark.

These people are out there in the general population. You do what you have to do to stay alive. That's what I'll do.

And those sheeple? Every one of them should have a gun, but most of them probably won't due to overbearing regulation. Maybe their government's got their backs.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

casingpoint's most recent link turned up some interesting stats:

In 2007, LEO's killed 391 people while on duty.

In 2007, private citizens killed 254 people in "justified homicide" situations.

So private citizens killed 64.9% as many people as LEO's did.

I liked the tone of the USA Today reporter. He is either even-handed or a secret 2A friend.

SIA

[chabouk]

casingpoint's most recent link turned up some interesting stats:

In 2007, LEO's killed 391 people while on duty.

In 2007, private citizens killed 254 people in "justified homicide" situations.

I wouldn't call it "good reporting", except compared to every other gun story. It looks like the writer actually sought independent facts, instead of seeking opposing viewpoints from advocacy groups.

Looking at the graph, I don't know how anyone is alarmed by this "trend".



The police and citizen shootings parallel, which suggests varying crime rates, not a "rising shoot-first mentality".

While 2007 might have been the highest since 1997, it was only barely higher than 2003, and still markedly lower than 1994. The graph also starts off with a sharp downward trend, which makes me wonder what the numbers were before '94, and why they are omitted.

[C-dub]

Wasn't 1994 when CHL was passed in Texas?

[Purplehood]

Mine does too, but for different reasons.

Do BG's carry around extra mags? Generally?

I don't know. Do you want to take a chance that they don't?

With todays generation of folks being raised watching guys with Max Firepower shooting everyone up, I would tend to ASSUME that they came loaded for Bear (lotsa ammo). Why else take on a packed restaurant if you can't handle it?