An open invitation to dispell some myths for me.

[gigag04]

I have another post dealing with XD SC vs Kimber UC II. In that disussion there was a bit of disagreement btw 9mm vs .40.

Here are some ideas that I have - and I would love for someone correct me becuase this is more of my gut feeling than anything that I know or have experienced:


9mm has increased risk of shoot through during a possible self defense encounter due to higher muzzle velocity and smaller round (less friction due to less surface area - it keeps velocity).


Is there any truth to that? Right now I carry .45 Speer Gold Dots and don't worry too much about shoot through.


If I go the XD route (still undecided) then I would like to have some insight before I tackle the 9mm/.40 decision.

I'm up for all the "HO's" y'all will give me.

Thanks again,

-nick

[dolanp]

With good hollowpoint ammo you don't have to worry about that. Most HP ammo in calibers like .45 probably don't even expand.

[stevie_d_64]

Definitions and terminology are key to understanding these issues...

What I understand about "shoot through", which is actually termed "penetration". That is the factor that deals with the round hitting, glancing or "going through" either human flesh, or natural substances like trees, brush, sand, rock etc etc...Or even man made products like building structures (i.e.: drywall, lumber, cinderblock, furniture, etc etc...)

A rounds' cross section doesn't have much to do with it unless it has a lot of force behind it...Of course a 9mm round has a smaller cross section to an object it hits, and they do have some substantial speed to the caliber...

A .45 being a larger caliber, sometimes sacrifices speed for energy into the target...Or what I have been told is called "force", and they measure that by foot pounds...

People I know also talk about how a .45 has plenty more "knockdown force" to a 9mm, which in some cases shoots a little flatter (the ballistic drop from the muzzle to the target is less than other heavier rounds)...

The velocity term you used is ok, but think of it more in terms of "energy"...

A rounds speed through the air downrange is not constant, factors like wind, barometric pressure, temperature and of course gravity all play on that round as soon as it leaves the barrel...

But I guess the bottom line to all of this is you are not going to be in any firefights with your defensive pistol, more than 25-30 feet if your lucky...

Why do you think they only want you to shoot at 15 yards on your CHL qualifier??? And not further...Of course practically this is not an absolute...But more of a personal judgement call to shoot at any range or condition...

Bottom line is that you are just as shot/dead with a 9mm as you are with a .45, both can very well penetrate a target in certain conditions, both have good energy into the target, and can stop a threat when the need arises...

But I also think that at the moment you are defending yourself, penetration is not a deciding factor on whether you shoot or not...It should be understood before-hand, that there is a risk to life and property from over-penetration from just about any caliber you shoot...

Thats one of those basic safety rules of shooting you have to be aware of when you go shoot...

The dynamics of a defensive shoot are a bit more complicated than just being at the range and shooting at a paper target...

Why do we practice shooting at the center of mass???

Thats is to reduce the chance of penetration, and more important...missing...

Personally, I think I may have gotten off track here, and I hope I didn't confuse the issue...

Thats why I do not shoot 9mm...I will if I have to, and have manytimes...But for defensive purposes, I took into consideration concealability, weight, round capacity and functionality...And cost somewhat...

I only own two pistols I carry for defensive purposes...

(1) SigPro 2340; shoots .40

(1) Glock 23; shoots .40

The numbers and performance of the .40 caliber at the time made more sence to me than any other caliber...

I am though entertaining the purchase a .45 sometime soon...But that firearm will be for times I will not have to worry about concealing anything...

The final steve-ism would be this...

Get real good with what you feel best shooting for defensive purposes, and stick with it...Train like you fight, and fight to win...

I feel a little guilty like I am preaching to the choir with all this, but what the hell...I would want everyone to sing, and sing well if it were all up to me...

Good luck...

[Baytown]

I will have to agree that any name brand ammo in JHP will do fine and stop like it should. I have some FBI stats I use in my rifle class, but they are not here in front of me.

If I remember right all the pistol bullets penetrated about the same as long as they were JHP's.

9mm may be faster and smaller diameter, but it is also lighter. I am not a physics guru, but I would think it would loose momentum sooner and break aprart easier.

There was a police vs. thug shooting a couple of years ago and the officer was using a 9mm (Glock 17) at close range and I don't think any exited the body.

I have always felt like the 40 is a compromise----the best of the worst and the worst of the best.

Glenn

[stevie_d_64]

Ok, Steve needs to be limited to 3 sentences from now on...

Geesh

[Paladin]

Honestly, Law enforcement stats seem to show that many of the shots fired in a gunfight are misses, so I don't worry too much about over penetration.

JHP's of any calibur may not expand, so you may shoot through somebody even with hollowpoints. Especially if they're wearing thick clothing like denim.

Under penetration is the real problem. If you don't penetrate enough things can go very wrong for you.

always remember:

"Rule #4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it."

[Paladin]

This topic about shooting through somebody reminds me of a F.A.T.S. shoot/no-shoot training demo I tried out a couple years ago.

With FATS, basically you get a special gun with blanks, there's a video scenario that plays out on a projector screen, and a computer registers where your shots go.

In my scenario I was protecting some VIP, by following him a few feet back. Some guy on the street passes the VIP, whips out a knife in a fraction of a second, and goes to stab the VIP from behind.

I shot twice. First shot nailed the BG straight through the heart. Second shot went a little wide but was a clean shot to the BG's weapon arm.

BG went down, but I remember thinking... boy I hope those bullets were supposed to be hollowpoints... cause if the first one went through the BG it was going to hit the VIP!

Of course, if the bullets were hollowpoints, and they didn't expand, even they might have gone through and hit the VIP.

Dropping down on a knee may be the best option in some scenarios.

[jimlongley]

Ok, Steve needs to be limited to 3 sentences from now on...

Geesh

You said it all that time.

I primarily carry one of several .45s, and at times I carry a 9mm, and when I can't carry anything else I carry a .32NAA Guardian. With the .45s I carry two mags of extra ammo besides the nine in the gun, giving me 25 rounds on me, with the 9mm I carry two extra mags of ammo besides the 18 in the gun, giving me 52 rounds on me. I figure I might have to make up for quality with quantity.

Don't even ask how many rounds I carry with the .32NAA, it's a belly gun.

[HighVelocity]

Here are my personal favorites for carry guns:

In 45's I use Winchester Ranger T 230gr +P
9mm Speer Gold dot 124gr+P
10mm Double Tap 165gr Gold Dots
32acp Winchester Silvertips (don't recall the weight)
.380 Corbon 90gr +P JHP
38spl Remington 158gr LSWCHP +P (plan on switching to the new Speer 135 if I can ever find any)
357 Magnum Remington 125gr Golden Sabre OR 158gr Federal JHP (depending on the gun. The 158's are murder on the hand in a scandium Smith)
40 S&W Speer 165gr Gold Dot OR Winchester 155gr Silvertips.

[txinvestigator]

Honestly, Law enforcement stats seem to show that many of the shots fired in a gunfight are misses, so I don't worry too much about over penetration.

JHP's of any calibur may not expand, so you may shoot through somebody even with hollowpoints. Especially if they're wearing thick clothing like denim.

Under penetration is the real problem. If you don't penetrate enough things can go very wrong for you.

always remember:

"Rule #4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it."

See this for a non-scientific, but interesting test; http://www.theboxotruth.com/bot08.htm

giggag04, Springfield now makes the XD in .45 GAP now.

[Chris]

i hate .40 caliber. i prefer 9mm or .45, not a compromise.

there are so many variables in a shooting situation. whether you're shooting a 9mm or a .40 is really irrelevant.

[dws1117]

Just to sound like like a broken record, I wouldn't worry to much about 9mm vs .40 vs .45. Most any quality JHP should serve you well. If you do your part the bullet will do its part.

I have chosen the .45 not because of any statistics but because It is comfortable to shoot and I love the 1911 platform.

The .40 and I do not play well together. I've had two different guns in .40. One Beretta and a Glock. After a range session my target always looked like I had been shooting a 12 gauge.

On the other hand, I've known people that don't do so well with the .45 but can chew one ragged hole with the .40

The bottom line is to choose the gun/caliber that you shoot well and that is comfortable for you.

Ok, Steve needs to be limited to 3 sentences from now on...

Betcha can't do it! :P

[gigag04]

giggag04, Springfield now makes the XD in .45 GAP now.

I could never afford practice ammo. Yet another factor in leaning towards a 9mm.

I think a 9mm will do fine, but as guys we like to think that the bigger cal of a .40 really changes things that much. Maybe I'm crazy. Thanks for all the replies!

-nick

[stevie_d_64]

Ok, Steve needs to be limited to 3 sentences from now on...

Betcha can't do it! :P[/quote]

I will probably fail in that regard...

Wait a minute...That was one...

Opps...

See, I already screwed it up...Bad Steve, Bad Steve!!!

[stevie_d_64]

All this discussion about ammo and caliber got me to thinking...

Have any of you, besides me ever looked at this company out of San Antonio that puts out the RBCD ammo???

They cover a large spectrum of calibers, and their bullet design looks very well thought out...

Their Website is: RBCD.com

If you take a look at the numbers it looks pretty good...

(5 sentences) I'm working on it...