Heartland Mall, Early Texas

[wgoforth]

You have hit upon one of many reasons why it's a good idea not to mention non-compliant signs. It gives them the opportunity to give you verbal notice that they don't want you there, and it gives them the opportunity to post a compliant sign.

As for whether you continue to carry/patronize the businesses, I can't really say.

Excellent point. Best to just keep ones mouth shut and carry concealed.

For the most part I would agree...but the problem here is that the authorities are the security and they agree with the idea that the sign is sufficient and that if your caught carrying you go to jail with a felony. Don't kid yourselves into thinking that experienced LEO's can't tell if someone is carrying. They may not be able to 100% of the time, but even many of us can while the general population cannot. If you see a guy with the same hip bag and fanny pack that you see in the gun shops it's a give away. Cops can spot that too. My point is that I want to educate the authorities and the mall here. Sure, we could beat the rap after hiring a lawyer and spending time in jail, but who needs that?? Again, I would normally agree to keep mouth shut. I have done that at many places...but when the mall and the police both agree, sounds like a perfect good-ol-boy system possibility to me.
Wayne

I don't think your getting it yet. If your caught carrying it means you have failed to conceal properly. Your going to get in trouble for failure to conceal. Sign or no sign. Seriously...the law is the law on this. Incorrect posting means you can carry. If you keep poking at the Tiger cage, your gonna get ate. Your going to have a fit if you walk in there and it is properly posted, thanks to your hard efforts and the help from the anti-gun cop you spoke with. It is probably natural for new CHL holders to feel like everyone can see the gun, but trust me...keep it under a shirt or vest and nobody will even come close to guessing you have a gun. Bulge in pocket for 99% of the population of Texas means keys or cell phone. your the only one that knows your bulge is a gun.

Some places post gun buster signs and what not to make the sheep feel safer. They really could not care less if you carry there. They also may be pulling a legal maneuver to avoid law suites if you blast someone in the mall with your CHL authorized weapon. Don't force them to properly post the place. Just keep your gun concealed and your mouth closed.

I will try this one more time then I will give up and do what I feel is best... if you see a guy with a fanny/hip pack you see in gun shops you know he's carrying even though the weapon is concealed, right? Now your saying if they know it's not concealed... is the pouch concealment or not? But since they go to gun shows too they know what it is. I have been around enough LEO's who have told me they can tell by the way a person walks, a lump under his shirt, etc that they are carrying. Do not assume I am new to this please. Actually, I would rather see a 30.06 and KNOW where I stand, than have a sign stuck in the back and police arrest me claiming I'm in a no gun zone. Again, yes I can get out of it.... but rather not get into it.
Wayne

[CLTX11]

Bulge in pocket for 99% of the population of Texas means keys or cell phone. your the only one that knows your bulge is a gun.

Im not even gonna go there

[03Lightningrocks]

You have hit upon one of many reasons why it's a good idea not to mention non-compliant signs. It gives them the opportunity to give you verbal notice that they don't want you there, and it gives them the opportunity to post a compliant sign.

As for whether you continue to carry/patronize the businesses, I can't really say.

Excellent point. Best to just keep ones mouth shut and carry concealed.

For the most part I would agree...but the problem here is that the authorities are the security and they agree with the idea that the sign is sufficient and that if your caught carrying you go to jail with a felony. Don't kid yourselves into thinking that experienced LEO's can't tell if someone is carrying. They may not be able to 100% of the time, but even many of us can while the general population cannot. If you see a guy with the same hip bag and fanny pack that you see in the gun shops it's a give away. Cops can spot that too. My point is that I want to educate the authorities and the mall here. Sure, we could beat the rap after hiring a lawyer and spending time in jail, but who needs that?? Again, I would normally agree to keep mouth shut. I have done that at many places...but when the mall and the police both agree, sounds like a perfect good-ol-boy system possibility to me.
Wayne

I don't think your getting it yet. If your caught carrying it means you have failed to conceal properly. Your going to get in trouble for failure to conceal. Sign or no sign. Seriously...the law is the law on this. Incorrect posting means you can carry. If you keep poking at the Tiger cage, your gonna get ate. Your going to have a fit if you walk in there and it is properly posted, thanks to your hard efforts and the help from the anti-gun cop you spoke with. It is probably natural for new CHL holders to feel like everyone can see the gun, but trust me...keep it under a shirt or vest and nobody will even come close to guessing you have a gun. Bulge in pocket for 99% of the population of Texas means keys or cell phone. your the only one that knows your bulge is a gun.

Some places post gun buster signs and what not to make the sheep feel safer. They really could not care less if you carry there. They also may be pulling a legal maneuver to avoid law suites if you blast someone in the mall with your CHL authorized weapon. Don't force them to properly post the place. Just keep your gun concealed and your mouth closed.

I will try this one more time then I will give up and do what I feel is best... if you see a guy with a fanny/hip pack you see in gun shops you know he's carrying even though the weapon is concealed, right? Now your saying if they know it's not concealed... is the pouch concealment or not? But since they go to gun shows too they know what it is. I have been around enough LEO's who have told me they can tell by the way a person walks, a lump under his shirt, etc that they are carrying. Do not assume I am new to this please. Actually, I would rather see a 30.06 and KNOW where I stand, than have a sign stuck in the back and police arrest me claiming I'm in a no gun zone. Again, yes I can get out of it.... but rather not get into it.
Wayne

LOL...well you have worn me out. Any Leo that has told you he can pick out who is carrying and who is not by the standards you mentioned above is full of poo. Fanny packs are worn by more Yuppies than they are by CHL'ers. I don't think you understood what I said. I said..Failure to conceal will get you arrested. That is not the same as a cop thinking you might have a gun because you walked with a limp and have a fanny pack. They have to see it to qualify as failure to conceal. Actually, at this point, your the only one who has been verbally notified not to carry in that mall....so you can't. The rest of us CHLers are free to exercise our right to carry in that mall. That is unless your successful in your goal to get the mall posted so we can't carry there either.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

wgoforth:

As far as LEO's able to tell who's carrying: keep in mind that when they are
dispatched to a call or come upon some evildoer, they may be able to tell
he's carrying because they expect him to be carrying. Many gangsters do
not have holsters for their weapons, and when you are wearing baggy pants
with no belt that could draw attention. Or even a cowboy with a pistol stuck
in his jeans, Mexican carry style.

You claim that you were asked what was in your hip pack, which I assume is where
you carry your gun. Also that someone was staring at a bulge of yours.
You may wish to reconsider your rig. Concealed means concealed.

Ever since I got my CHL I have tried to "make"
other CHL's. I have never seen one person that I could ID as CHL. Since there are
about 314,574 CHL's out of the Texas population of about 22,000,000, that means that
about 1 in 70 Texans has a CHL. So in a room of 70 people, someone's packing.

It's a big job to make all the non-compliant posted sites know that they should
post 30.06. The rest of us don't have the desire or the time to go there.

SIA

[C-dub]

[03Lightningrocks]

wgoforth:

As far as LEO's able to tell who's carrying: keep in mind that when they are
dispatched to a call or come upon some evildoer, they may be able to tell
he's carrying because they expect him to be carrying. Many gangsters do
not have holsters for their weapons, and when you are wearing baggy pants
with no belt that could draw attention. Or even a cowboy with a pistol stuck
in his jeans, Mexican carry style.

You claim that you were asked what was in your hip pack, which I assume is where
you carry your gun. Also that someone was staring at a bulge of yours.
You may wish to reconsider your rig. Concealed means concealed.

Ever since I got my CHL I have tried to "make"
other CHL's. I have never seen one person that I could ID as CHL. Since there are
about 314,574 CHL's out of the Texas population of about 22,000,000, that means that
about 1 in 70 Texans has a CHL. So in a room of 70 people, someone's packing.

It's a big job to make all the non-compliant posted sites know that they should
post 30.06. The rest of us don't have the desire or the time to go there.

SIA

Good points. My daughter outed some guy in a restaurant during one of our "packing"/"not packing" games. ...of course we have no way of knowing if we are right or not, but he was wearing a hunters vest over a flannel shirt with NRA shooting patches and what not all over it, in warm weather, and a gimme cap with some kind of farm implement company on the front.

[wgoforth]

wgoforth:

As far as LEO's able to tell who's carrying: keep in mind that when they are
dispatched to a call or come upon some evildoer, they may be able to tell
he's carrying because they expect him to be carrying. Many gangsters do
not have holsters for their weapons, and when you are wearing baggy pants
with no belt that could draw attention. Or even a cowboy with a pistol stuck
in his jeans, Mexican carry style.

You claim that you were asked what was in your hip pack, which I assume is where
you carry your gun. Also that someone was staring at a bulge of yours.
You may wish to reconsider your rig. Concealed means concealed.

Ever since I got my CHL I have tried to "make"
other CHL's. I have never seen one person that I could ID as CHL. Since there are
about 314,574 CHL's out of the Texas population of about 22,000,000, that means that
about 1 in 70 Texans has a CHL. So in a room of 70 people, someone's packing.

It's a big job to make all the non-compliant posted sites know that they should
post 30.06. The rest of us don't have the desire or the time to go there.

SIA

Good points. My daughter outed some guy in a restaurant during one of our "packing"/"not packing" games. ...of course we have no way of knowing if we are right or not, but he was wearing a hunters vest over a flannel shirt with NRA shooting patches and what not all over it, in warm weather, and a gimme cap with some kind of farm implement company on the front.

I believe I can say I've made a couple...what about those wearing a Desantis Hipster just like your own? Again, you think a cop couldn't make that? BUT, as long as it's covered, even if he figures that's what it is, it's concealed as far as he is concerned. Now, suppose you wore one in a mall where police were standing LOOKING for gun carriers? and they were under the incorrect assumption that it was a no-gun zone? That is what we are dealing with it. Again, I am dealing with ignorance on the part of the property owners AND the authorities, not a typical situation. BTW, in a small town, a public figure (I am a local church minister) can get a lot done.

The local radio station here had gun rights as their topic... I just called in and had my 5 minutes asking others to politely call or write the mall asking they they put up a "No unlicensed firearm" sign.

Here is the letter I sent to mall establishment yesterday
begins:

Dear Mrs Roark,
Thank you for taking my call in regards to CHL's. As you may not have considered, sign notices such as yours not only do not meet state requirements in order to be enforceable, but only apply to law abiding citizens as bad guys could care less about signs. Surely a would be robber would not leave his gun outside due to a sign. The Taylor Co deputy training us told us to ignore all signs that do not comply, for if we carriers must abide by the law, so do you.

Texas DPS website that specifies the wording and size of sign may be found at

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... osting.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would like to make you aware of some facts related to CHL holders in Texas of which you may be unaware:

1. A CHL holder has no felony convictions on his/her record.
2. A CHL holder has not had a class A or B misdemeanor within five years of the original issuance of the license.
3. A CHL holder is not mentally incapable.
4. A CHL holder is not permitted to be chemically dependent.
5. A CHL holder has received training in the law of self-defense.
6. A CHL holder has passed a handgun qualification exercise.
7. All CHL holders are 21-years-old or older.
8. CHL holders do not have outstanding child support payments and are not in default on student loans.

CHL holders pride themselves on being upstanding citizens--they typically avoid criminal behavior to the letter of the law. For that reason, they will not enter your business armed when they see your sign. However, most guard their second amendment rights with a ferver. They will usually take their business elsewhere rather than accept what they perceive as an insult to their character and responsibility level.

May I offer, as an alternative to the 30.06 sign, the posting of a sign forbidding the unlicensed possession of a firearm? This will allow you to make the statement that you do not want criminal behavior, while respecting the wishes of lawful gun carriers. The mall in Abilene has just such a sign stating "The UNLICENSED possesion of a handgun in this establishment is forbidden."

I encourage you to visit the Department of Public Safety (DPS) website. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; You will find a great deal of information about the CHL holders in your community.

Thank you for you time and attention. I would be happy to work with you in a way to both satisfy your CHL customers and meet the needs of your establishment as well. Keep in mind that the only time a CHL holder is allowed to draw his weapon is in a case of life and death. Surely if such were to occur at your mall, you would be happy to have a law abiding carrying individual present. You will never see our weapons unless needed, for "concealed" means "concealed."

As for me, I refuse to be where I cannot defend myself or my family. My chances of being harmed is the exact percentage as the customers of the Salt Lake City Mall. Which, btw, the shooter was unlicensed and did not care about signs nor laws.

I am considering publishing this in the opinion page of the Brownwood Bulletin, but hope you will give a positive consideration to such.

Wayne Goforth

[chamberc]

wgoforth:

Here is the letter I sent to mall establishment yesterday



You've got to be kidding me.

[Keith B]

OK, folks; the OP has the right to do what he feels needs to be done. Whether you like it or not, that is the OP's prerogative. Please keep the discussion non-personal or it will be locked.

[03Lightningrocks]

Regardless of whether I agree with your position on this, I truly hope your successful in making them put up the no unlicensed sign in place of the current sign. A sincere good luck to you.

[Liberty]

Making the matter even weirder.... I saw an older State Trooper in the Quick Mart, so I said "your someone I'd like to pick the brains of. Just moved here, and while at the mall, I noticed waay in the back in tiny letters is a "Mall Etiquette" sign. (it's 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper with about 20 different rules). And on down the list it says no weapons, legal or illegal." I went on to say that I had a CHL, and since they had no 30.06 sign, what was a LEO's view of it. He replied "Don't you dare carry in that mall. I used to provide security there and if caught it will be a felony." I asked "Even without the required 30.06?" He said "Yes sir. They used to have the sign, don't know where it's gone, but you do not carry." Wow. So, sounds like although I have my right to carry, it could still involve jail and lawyers until cleared.

That is one truly ignorant trooper.
There have been very few (none next to none) convictions of 30.06 BTW

[KD5NRH]

That is not the same as a cop thinking you might have a gun because you walked with a limp and have a fanny pack.

If that cop then decides to ask for ID while you're wandering around the mall, you're busted. If he's of the same opinion as the trooper mentioned earlier, you're going for a ride. I'm going to have to agree with the OP on this one: make them post so we're properly notified, or have them get rid of the rule so we don't have to wait until the judge has time to deal with it.

You might also want to consider GC 411.187(a)(1) and (c)(4) as modified by HB 2730 this year: (TLO hasn't been updated to reflect this yet, so you'll have to dig through the bill if you want to confirm the current wording.)

(a) The department shall suspend a license under this section if the license holder:
(1) is charged with the commission of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor or equivalent offense, or of an offense under Section 42.01, Penal Code, or equivalent offense, or of a felony under an information or indictment;

(c) The department shall suspend a license under this section:
(4) until dismissal of the charges, if the person's license is subject to suspension for the reason listed in Subsection (a)(1);

So you're not just going to be wasting money defending yourself against the ridiculous charge, you're going to be giving up your license until it's dismissed. Therein lies the biggest problem with being a test case for many of the bad or questionable postings.

[blue]

PLEASE FOLKS!!! CONSIDER that Perhaps, just perhaps, the malls and stores really do know the law and are posting noncompliant signs ON PURPOSE to make the Nervous Nellys happy, while knowing we are smart enough to keep our mouths shut and 'Carry On'! =
WIN-WIN!


30.06 = we lose and the business loses our cash =
LOSE-LOSE!


---PLEASE, PLEASE--- LET SLEEPING DOGS LIE! ---

CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED!

Thanks.

[KD5NRH]

PLEASE FOLKS!!! CONSIDER that Perhaps, just perhaps, the malls and stores really do know the law and are posting noncompliant signs ON PURPOSE to make the Nervous Nellys happy, while knowing we are smart enough to keep our mouths shut and 'Carry On'!

Then it won't hurt a thing to talk to them about it.

CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED!

Arrested means arrested. Charged means charged. Suspended until dismissal of the charges means suspended until dismissal of the charges.

If your gun is so well concealed that a cop will never spot it, why'd you waste the money on the license, anyway?

[03Lightningrocks]

PLEASE FOLKS!!! CONSIDER that Perhaps, just perhaps, the malls and stores really do know the law and are posting noncompliant signs ON PURPOSE to make the Nervous Nellys happy, while knowing we are smart enough to keep our mouths shut and 'Carry On'!

Then it won't hurt a thing to talk to them about it.

CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED!

Arrested means arrested. Charged means charged. Suspended until dismissal of the charges means suspended until dismissal of the charges.

If your gun is so well concealed that a cop will never spot it, why'd you waste the money on the license, anyway?

Wow...with all due respect, I could not possibly disagree more. I am not sure what to say about the comment concerning not getting a CHL. Wow seems appropriate.